1. David Sneider

2. Ryan Gill

3. Josh Tan

4. Cent Hosten (Metagov)

1. Mendes (Closer)

2. Conner Swenberg (Station)

3. Eseoghen Mentie (DisCO)

4. Jason Morton

5. Stepan Gershuni

1. Summary from previous meetings

• Josh
Review of past discussion in this WG.Zoom chat
Conor and Balazs had a discussion around a MVP
We should emphasis moving fast
Want to prevent the proliferation of many standards

• Conner
Overview of the Meeting Primer
Attestation framework
There is still a gap in conversations about what content we are talking about
Proposing a content framework
We are here to foster greater interoperability of personal information
What is the smallest unit of value we can agree on and make a collective proposal from DAOstar One?
Intuition
How does identity work with DAOs?
Focus on the within DAOs part
Integration with the DAOstar One DAO URI standard
Integrating the type and daoURI

• Stepan
When thinking about attestations, when working with centralized platforms like discord or github, we are unlikely to get direct attestation from those organizations.
Thus, we need trust metrics/scores
Anyone can become an issuier
As you do the issuience serve your score goes up unless there are disputes and fraud, the score goes down
The trust score field could be built into the schema

• Ryan
A project is tied to developer DAO, there are multiple roles
Funds coming out of the gnosis safe has to be verified by a project champion
Would that project champion be the person who is an issier and stored in a registry?
Or would it be DAO level?

• Stepan
It should be application level
This would be a dApp with a smart contract
There is also proxy issuence

• Eseaghene
We should focus on the what and less on the how

• Josh
breaking it down into different types of data is illuminating
(side conversation happening on contributor primitives)
We should focus on just one thing
Organizational membership

• Mendes
How minimal should this be?
Are we just defining general membership, or how granular should we get?
What is in scope

• Stephan
Adding some type of clarification in the scheme that would give some type of objective metric to level of contribution

• Conner
There are many ways of classifying levels of participation
We should have extensibility for annotation

• Josh
Was talking to Steward Hall about contribution metrics

• Stephan
Not enforce any system or rubric
Give people this flexability and from there best practices can be emergent

• David
There is a blury line between membership and contribution.
If we spec this to membership, it might be easier to generalize to contributors
Another anchor point could be how to anchor credentials from a multisig address

• Josh
What should the tables in a diagram be for a member object

• Conner
The information would be hosted in an application, not the DAO

• Josh
review of tables for the data model

• rPhone
Regularly repeating attestation and expire dates

• Stepan
If the attestation system is decentralized they are still able to show that it was valid even if it was revoked

• rPhone
if using verified credentials
based on the standard, even though a user might still have the data, the data will not function if the VC has been revoked

• Stepan
even if a CV is revoked, you should still be able to match a signature in the VC
VC should be mutable

• Rouven
a lot of people using this standard in a traditional means
why would you pripritize revokation?
it used to be important to stop someone from entering a building
but in a digital context, it is possible to have much more regular updating (every 24hr for example)
having people enter some type of password to reauthenticat
In DAOs we see a lot of self-authentication

• Eseoghene
A DAO survey to ask about credentials and revocation patterns
Eseoghene will take lead on making a survey
Will post in the DAOstar TG for further feedback

Joshua Tan
13:23
https://daostar.notion.site/How-does-identity-work-within-DAOs-3842497b4eaa45668fb99c308d86c552

Mendes
27:23
Terrific work!

Ryan Gill
27:34
Well done!

Joshua Tan
28:34
GitHub is super engaged in DAOstar and we may be able to get them to issue a credential.

Eseoghene Mentie
30:30
Connor can you please share the link to your presentation?

cswenberg
30:41
https://www.notion.so/Meeting-Primer-e7064cfc2c7240589fe5f19970e42c18

Eseoghene Mentie
30:47
Thank you

cswenberg
30:57
Page is nested in the meeting notes from today too in “Agenda” section 🙂

Cent
38:25
would things like orca pods also be in scope?

cswenberg
38:56
Orco pods describe people’s belonging in an organization (or sub-organization) so I would say yes?

Joshua Tan
39:05
@cent Probably yes

Cent
45:34
+1 membership focus and letting patterns of contributor extension emerge

Joshua Tan
49:38
https://lucid.app/lucidchart/28e9f773-18b2-4e99-8e4c-dcb5ad3f1544/edit?invitationId=inv_7f62685c-1580-4ece-a53b-4d5be0cb612a

Cent
56:50
can a member revoke their membership attestation?

Cent
56:54
can the user make decisions about what dao membership is disclosed to people calling the app?

Mendes
01:00:07
“can the user make decisions about what dao membership is disclosed to people calling the app?” I imagine this could be achieved as an extension of the standard - e.g. by somehow issuing proof of ownership of that attestation, guaranteeing pseudonymity

cswenberg
01:07:12
Count me in

Mendes
01:07:14
I’d like to help

Rouven
01:07:59
pls let me know the time - Mircea or Simon might be able to join

Rouven
01:08:04
thx!

Joshua Tan
00:04
Alright let's see now.
00:09
So I think.
00:12
i've had like have like 70 million conversations in between, with a large Connor step on.
00:19
A lot of different issues were raised the meantime from maybe it'd be good to just review because we're getting kind of in the weeds already to review kind of what happened last call and get some sort of sense of like what the.
00:33
What we were talking about.
00:36
So if I pull back and here are the project notes again.
00:44
Okay, so in the first couple calls we built out this table of how it works and how we think about I didn't do in our various different projects, it was really helpful for data centers where we are.
00:59
In the last couple of meetings we talked about different use cases we want to support.
01:04
Especially focusing on, I think.
01:06
A lot of people.
01:08
are thinking about how to support these web three CDs, maybe that's not the right word like some idea of like a contributor profile but Dallas can use to kind of evaluate.
01:18
both current and potential contributors.
01:21
There are a bunch of other use cases which are kind of linked into use cases we want to support section in the project Doc.
01:30
The we also talked about lots of additional foreign says that come with every single use case things like.
01:39
registries.
01:42
revocation registries as well as I kind of verify people kind of like admitting these credentials, the precise kind of like mechanism by which people will be demonstrating these whether it's you know transfer over fcs verifiable credentials, or some other thing and then.
01:58
I don't know if it's here, but some notion of like.
02:02
Like because different implementations of the ID I think about it or different implementations assumptions about identity these cases.
02:13
Use cases we are not supporting the main one right now that we spent a lot of time talking about last week was not we're not supporting plain text crazy people who want to post their you know pii on on chain so that's just not a good use case we're going to go to cover.
02:30
not saying that it should never happen because you know never say never such maybe there are some of these crazy people are less crazy than we think are they're crazy like a fox but yeah it's not something we're going to cover.
02:44
The a so.
02:46
The question that we left with last time, and when we covered it a little bit is like what is going to be the NDP for what we want to build.
02:55
Is it likely going to be some sort schema but maybe a comes with some other recommendations.
03:01
I find it really helpful, especially at this stage, since we've done a lot of like sort of you know, covering the basic steps is just identify like okay let's actually start working on a piece of like an actual document start structuring it and think about what needs to go in there.
03:19
So I was going to do this, and then I apologize I didn't really have enough time, but I think Carter may have I don't have to draw the spider man put together, like a short draft.
03:34
But we also so Connor collage and I had a chance to talk about.
03:39
Some of the same questions, and I think we came to some I think decent a decent proposal but, like How does restructure at least the next couple of meetings and how to sort of think through.
03:49
This like minimal viable thing that maybe we want to produce appalachians and here right now, but I will say that one thing that he brought up that I think I heartily agree with is that whatever we do, we should emphasize moving fast.
04:03
Because obviously this ecosystem moves.
04:07
very, very fast.
04:10
And one way of getting a standard out there is just like you somebody build something, and you know it's already out there and then people adopted so if we're not there.
04:20
Then you know something else is there that may be like not intended to be a standard, just like some one company building something.
04:26
And there's also obviously like for like you know, we want to prevent this, how do I say it explosion of different standards in the space so moving fast and making sure people know that we're here and talking about it.
04:40
makes it so that okay there's a one there's a place where this these conversations already happening, if you want to sort of participate and get your voice in that just participate here rather than.
04:50
You know, a bunch of standards in any other and creating mass chaos in the ecosystem so anyways a lot of reasons for moving fast and.
05:00
yeah I mean, in general I just prefer to move fast because, like my life is limited and let's just get stuff done alright.
05:08
So with that a quarter, do you maybe want to share.
05:15
I don't want to put you as well, but um if you wanted to share a little bit of but maybe blog and I talked I yourself a large and I talked about and how to approach.
05:26
Going into this.
05:28
take it away.

cswenberg
05:29
yeah, of course, so in the document the josh linked in the zoom chat Voyager number four I really like this whole primary Doc on the agenda just summarizing some thoughts i've personally had and I got some feedback from josh and blog on.
05:43
We can just like not going to like read it together, but you can read it i'll just summarize some of the main things that i've noticed, I think we can direct conversation towards as an attempt, for today.
05:52
So one of the main things that came out of last week was the access station framework, I think it was.
05:58
essay or i've been from disco who really like nail this down for us about the different ways data can be sourced.
06:03
Or, just like wondering some model, think about it from the self from the organization from peers within your organization and.
06:10
Evan said this thing called they just like other I tried to make the like a stronger Stephen by saying from services so specific applications that automate.
06:17
The collection of certain kinds of data or the verification of it so, for example, github it's not you could say I wrote this commitment let's really get hub that shows you the diff that says yes, you wrote this commit just as an example.
06:30
These explain how information is generated, I still feel like we have this gap, and all the conversations about what actual contents are we talking about.
06:38
Like what is the information we all care to collect and show about contributors about members of organizations and so that's I want to propose just the content framework.
06:46
So the main three classifications i've just noticed my work in Dallas group membership proof of action and metrics I work in this group I did this thing I did have own X things.
06:56
So this should be somewhat intuitive to everyone here, I hope, with your some like examples, if you want to go more um one note I have is just like.
07:06
Technically, all these things can just be modeled as a one flat structure with like a flat credential this would did vc people like to.
07:14
preach is like Oh, there is the group membership and looks the same as like I did this thing because it's an organization testing and part of the thing versus I attest, that I built something.
07:25
Whatever whatever that may be, but I just want to make it clear that, like we're not here to talk about the infrastructure behind any of this content or how it could be structured, but rather.
07:34
What is the information we're actually talking about just to align on why we're here because there's lots of like a lot of things that we look up so one effort to kind of organize.
07:44
People are some of the people in the Voyager group is looking at both frameworks as a matrix together.
07:49
So these are some examples i've just like looked across even like web two and some web three people about how.
07:56
We can look at all this information together so, for example, a self at a station about group membership would be like linkedin.
08:02
Anyone can go on linkedin and say I work for my organization there's a little to no authentication and that's how it goes.
08:09
say on the proof of action from appear do you work system is about people, defining bounty boards and then there's an approval mechanism where the depth Finder of the bounty has to prove that some other person did one task.
08:22
Say someone like kyc down their service that verify government ID so they're verifying your group membership but.
08:28
verifying membership in this government group doesn't really make sense as a self like you just post on Twitter that i'm a US citizen, but we really makes kyc down offer unique value is.
08:39
There, a service that has trust and verifying the validity of an identifier, so you can just cruise this matrix and you're on as you see fit and I guess smart contracts can also fit in here as like.
08:54
Like structuring this process of access stations, for example, one out to station could be I hold X token in the smart contract is the proof mechanism to show that the girls are required it and.
09:06
I hope it goes without saying, with these are all kind of Labor adoptions of what each of us may be doing.
09:10
In organizations, so, for example, one diverse just doesn't do task management, they also have their own group membership mechanism, because all their information is is designed within the hierarchy of an organization.
09:21
And, actually, that is, like one of the main partners for the next combo but.
09:26
So after looking at all of these ways that we have information to offer or that we want to collect and potentially share between our various applications and empower users to take with them throughout the ecosystem.
09:38
want to bring us back to like why we're here we're here to like foster greater interoperability, by sharing the interfaces by sharing patterns of building things and just agreeing on the language we want to use of structuring information so.
09:50
We can actually achieve that goal if we can't find agreement and we're less like more or less likely to find agreement if we have to larger the scope and we all have something to say about each little piece about this massive big picture.
10:01
As it stands right now I guess the intuition collage.
10:05
Like posted me yesterday is that, looking at all these different ways of all these different kinds of data at once, is likely to not make much progress on that was just his personal intuition working in.
10:16
Previous standards group before even once focused and identity.
10:19
So, to focus our group josh and block off of these questions, what is the smallest unit of value we can agree on and make a collective proposal from dial star one.
10:28
And where can we start that best positions us to continue to finding more ecosystem standards, this is a group that hopefully will continue for.
10:36
The rest of time that web three is alive and now we are going to be here, defining more standards, over time, as new ideas come about, and there is more need for interoperability and agreement on how he wants to build things to move faster as an industry.
10:49
So we don't need to solve everything at once, where can we start that will get us something at the door get us feeling happy that we ship something and also put down on the map of starting to define identity and bring in more players who are working in the space and bring up publicity.
11:02
One of intuition, we can find from this is that the original document literally says how does identity work within Dallas.
11:08
Emphasis on the within Dallas part of that sentence so maybe the easiest place to start is just by agreeing on how we want the numbers to represent the words that they're part of an attest to that.
11:18
Either through the self doubt their peers, or some other services verifying so drawing on intuition, also from the previous tip from telstar about a.
11:28
mechanism about a standard for defining the metadata of the Dow What could it look like if we potentially do the reverse of that given a member, how can we show all the organizations that are part of.
11:38
And, starting with an organization membership seems as an intuitive place to start because it leads naturally into a lot of the other questions we've already been asking yourselves.
11:45
What are the some organizations as many groups as part of what has this person done within the organization like these proof contributions that they have.
11:53
And what do other people to work have to say about this person whether it's review cycles or to coordinate style numeric endorsement kind of thing so.
12:03
Throughout this together, like how might we show these interfaces regardless of where you put the data.
12:08
If it contains information about a member and the relation to the organization like can we find a way to agree on what that format could look like.
12:16
And aside goal, I guess, also be given that there is somewhat of a documented data standard that.
12:22
dial star proposed last month, is there a way we can leverage that to kind of build on top of what we've already done or other groups have already done and continue to advocate for duster one standards across the ecosystem.
12:33
Because if we have one set of standards that's easier than if we have a chaotic set of standards and so if we interlink the two.
12:39
There are benefits to having is potentially then related in the future so just as a pitch a conversation starter, this is what the dial star.
12:49
Top Level TAO structure looks like it's just a name and description and then a series of your eyes to understand more information about the organization if we're to.
12:59
Create just a pseudo like basic way of modeling this within a Member, you could say Oh, if I have some endpoint that will give me information about a person and what three.
13:08
It will say oh they're type Member, this is their name, maybe some other metadata but then what's really important about this part is the organizations, could be a list of objects to then fetch more information about the Dow.
13:18
So these are my organizations that are have a typed out mimic the same type of peer and that this is the dial your is the same one that you can use to fetch all this information and then fetch the message information within the organization.
13:31
And yeah, so this is, I guess the baby the baby conversation sort of like ways we can think about modeling membership in organizations and agree upon a way to communicate that.
13:42
And there's some other threads instead of your own thread service, here too, if you'd like um but yeah that's like the short spiel I guess josh I don't know how you wanted to take this but.
13:54
I guess, we can just anyone has comments on this way of thinking um so I guess one question i'd be curious to hear from people is.
14:02
One is there anything that's obviously missing from this way of thinking about the kinds of content, we want to store.
14:07
And otherwise like do you can we find alignment on group membership being the easiest place to start, and also the best beachhead to support all these other things that we want to do in the future.

Joshua Tan
14:23
Okay, the first thing i'll say is food, we should all pause and just like give Connor a round of applause, because this is a really excellent presentation.
14:37
That is this is spectacular.
14:40
And really useful for I think setting the stage for this for this conversation before dropping myself.
14:49
The other people have any initial thoughts on what kind of just brought up.

Stepan Gershuni
14:58
I wanted to.
14:59
So our thinking about the same kind of structure and then I think it's great that makes a lot of sense, I think it really provides value.
15:10
And one.
15:11
Potential missing piece in there is when i'm thinking about all the statisticians.
15:18
If any case when it's coming from central I started with something and get fired or discourse or this larger tools we probably want to get down, you have directly issue this credentials, at least not in the beginning.
15:34
Therefore.
15:35
there's a need to.
15:37
have some kind of trust.
15:40
score or trust registry of those services that would be Eastern credentials, so it would it wouldn't be myself, but it will be some service that goes on to my linkedin or github profile pulling data from there.
15:55
And then issuing it in the form of credential that can be then used but there can be wrapped and workable credential engine and reuse by other applications and.
16:07
If that's the case anyone can do it, but there should be some way of.
16:15
Judging or assessing the trustworthiness of self service, so the simplest solution could be just a simple either a registry it's like.
16:27
boolean you'll either get it or or you cannot issue which I think is creating all arrows for mentioning and the more decentralized approach would be just saying trust score.
16:40
So, so that anyone can become an issue, but then.
16:46
As you.
16:48
Do your issues service and and if there's no mistakes and people trusted information your trust littles out if there's any disputes or some other form of.
16:58
of potentially either mistakes or fraud, then your trust score is we use this will help so from from an application perspective that would be very valuable because, if I want to create like reputation system or.
17:12
or something that we do for $4 like important system, we want to make sure that the information is not just.
17:18
Existing the profile but it's actually can be trusted and yeah that can be built in the beginning that's going to be something simple just adding this trust score.
17:30
field in the schema but then they, the more important question is how how to build decentralized governance around around the issue it's I don't think we have solution, but I think it's important to plan it in the beginning.

Joshua Tan
17:47
So, like practically speaking, it would just be like.
17:51
addition to the schema where you um you just like what does it like if we start with the starter schema that Connor has so that would be.
18:04
Actually, this wouldn't show up there right, this would be like the trust scores for register for issuers.

Stepan Gershuni
18:09
and so forth.
18:10
The effort it's verifiable credential Dan it would have the ID of the sure.
18:15
And that can be anything so, for example, deep skills or one day reverse order station or.
18:20
Any other application can use your credentials based on some data that they have internally or third party data.
18:26
And those issues.
18:28
They that that should be a mapping between the ids and trust score and it will be different in a separate place maybe a smart contract, maybe it's it's not like there's no IPA there's no private information it's just their registry or false issuers.
18:45
And then.
18:46
vc would reference the Ad and then Daddy can be resolved took took took to get data from.
18:55
Your registry.

Joshua Tan
18:58
Okay.

Ryan Gill
19:00
that's where clarification so within developer down we're building out our project process right and so let's say we have a.
19:10
project that is tied to developer doubt and then under that project we have roles, such as project champion.
19:16
And you know, a lead engineer, and so the project has its own no safe and then transactions to contributors are coming out from that individual projects, there was the same.
19:27
has to be verified by let's say the project champion, who is you know verifying that work is actually been performed whether it's an issue being solved on github whatever it may be.
19:39
With that project champion be the individual who is assigned as an issuer and stored in this registry, so that when they are issuing this credential to the different contributors.
19:54
That they're checked against that registry, or would it be more down level of hey is developer doubt able to issue credentials.

Stepan Gershuni
20:04
yeah I think it should be application level and an application takes care of its internal application that is incentivized to have a stress score as high as possible and.
20:15
yeah we can think of like maybe if there's an incentive layer at some point when.
20:20
If you will, as a developer that was issued prudential Center then reuse by other adults, maybe there's some talking transaction, but that definitely.
20:27
next step, but then the application that would be that would be the owner of the ad or disorder so issues is happening not by the person by by but by some some sort of have some cold.
20:42
yeah and some applications running somewhere and actually in this use case if it's if it's fully this isn't smart contract that's easier because.
20:51
you're there's no proxy so in how we think about it is is, you can have direct issues, so I use my if you're a MAC address and same credentials to you and that's easy we don't actually need to ask, or just either trust me and dawn.
21:04
And there, but the other example would be approximations when i'm going to your github profile pulling your I don't know number of stars in your.
21:14
Report and then issue credential to you, and that is the point of centralization that's where it's important because I can actually put any information in there there's no like vodka, or I I can do it.
21:29
correctly or I can change something little mistake or do to kind of conscious fraud.

Unknown Speaker
21:36
yeah.

Joshua Tan
21:43
Sorry, as sushi.

Eseoghene Mentie
21:45
I see.

Joshua Tan
21:49
One calls me that.

Eseoghene Mentie
21:51
essays fine yeah, I just wanted to like remind us that we're talking about the House and we're talking about the what we've been delving into the how and if distracting us from the warped just wanted to remind us.

Joshua Tan
22:04
So.
22:06
Speaking of the word I guess.
22:08
So one of the sort of things that really struck me about cars presentation was.
22:15
Just at this came up yesterday.
22:18
As well in our in our conversations is that breaking it down into.
22:23
What is it.
22:25
The different kinds different kinds of data so being part of organization, the actual sort of like activities or contributions.
22:34
Whether we're not being part of a service organization actually there's a I won't go into this tangent there's actually a kind of a separate conversation that's happening right now.
22:42
Very close by to this one, where people are talking about contribution primitives kind of.
22:47
Not part of Dallas.
22:49
And then there is the.
22:53
was the last one.
22:55
The last classification.

cswenberg
22:57
Just metrics just like aggregations and you make expressions and stuff.
23:02
So.

Joshua Tan
23:03
I figured it might make sense for just just for the sake of narrowing, what we need to produce sparing the scope of this conversation if we just focused on one of those and it seems like the one that's most relevant is.
23:18
organizational membership so is that something that people are okay with.
23:24
For feels like a wise decision deserves just like narrow down on one thing, and if so.
23:29
On organizational membership it doesn't mean we like can't eventually cover the others, but for now, in terms of like shooting for like a you know.
23:38
A deliverable like a minimal thing I see some nodding anybody have any objections, also, I just want to clarify in terms of like the.
23:45
mechanism for these conversations, this is not set up to be like a voting thing it's rough consensus is all about if somebody has a legitimate.
23:54
You know problem with something that we're doing, you should always feel free to speak up and argue the reason we'll go through the reasoning and try to identify like the best thing for sometimes like one person knows like actually just the expert and knows the answer.
24:11
This you're the expert.

Mendes
24:13
Now i'm not the expert, I just have one question no objections how minimal should this be so are we just talking about membership or are we defining the top of membership, and by that I mean, are we going into does this person.
24:29
belong to a sub organization, a group of work group within Dallas something like that, or is it just.
24:34
Doubt that's it.

Joshua Tan
24:37
I think it's.
24:38
I mean we're talking about organization membership.
24:40
Does feel okay to talk about some doubts and summer trip.
24:45
I think I I would think that is within scope because it's like it's such a like generic use case right.

Ryan Gill
24:52
or.

Mendes
24:53
i'll just.

Ryan Gill
24:54
Read.
24:57
I was, I was just wondering like are guilds going to be classified the same if it's not technically a sub doubt, but it is a major entity within a doubt, should we be acknowledging those or should it have to be classified as you know, a doubt.

Joshua Tan
25:17
I would guess it has to do with like the dal Okay, so that was that we just talked about like how the Dow is not quite an issuer right.

Unknown Speaker
25:26
yeah.

Joshua Tan
25:28
But has some sort of like special status with the issuer the application is that fair well the guild may not.
25:38
yeah so you could it seems like you would want the metadata of like the credential itself to have.
25:44
You know, you could customize it I like talk about guilds but it's really the data itself that's putting it's like authority behind a tree.
25:50
With them.
25:51
Using the what it's both the Dell and it sure.
25:57
Stefan.

Stepan Gershuni
25:59
I also have a question.
26:01
So what what so the constituents.
26:05
being part of the doubt so like.
26:07
there's very big difference between me just joining discord server near doing contribution once maybe something very small any one hour on the call and me like leading the whole or extreme or large effort.
26:26
there's very, very big gap between this and I think it's more important not to have it's more important to distinguish between this so.
26:35
I think that's what my answer to my question would be not choosing one of these or setting a limit somewhere, but adding some kind of clarification, within the schema that would give.
26:49
me the level of involvement or or some kind of subjective metric.
26:55
That shows your level of contribution.
26:59
But I don't it's definitely hard to do universally because all TAO so different and the nature, Mr Butler the nature of work is different, so in.
27:10
Like yeah and some don't say they can be just come and rate attributes and that will be considered contribution in others, I would need to spend like three months doing research before.
27:23
I provide some Paleo.

Joshua Tan
27:29
My sense on the.
27:31
corner.

cswenberg
27:32
yeah my sense on this is just there are many classifier hours within an organization they use to organize who's actually doing what in the organization with the relative statuses.
27:42
So maybe play, but Stephen I think what you're pointing to is just if we have some explicit places to have extensive ability for people to annotate the organization membership.
27:53
And maybe have like a way model, the annotation can accompany what we know we wanted to already and potentially future mental models that keep us in the future, I think that is achievable for us.

Joshua Tan
28:07
Now I would say that um.
28:08
there's actually relates, I was having a conversation with.
28:11
Andy hall was a political science professor at Stanford and.
28:17
We were talking about some actually quite related like engagement metrics and just like that's just like a very complicated question.
28:25
To be able to define that in a standard way it's like actually comparable like working from the perspective data science right, how do I establish comparable credentials, or like measurements, in order, in order to evaluate.
28:40
You know the differences between these Dallas from a research resource perspective it's like very similar from like a contribution perspective right you, you have to engage with all the similar questions about like how to adjust.
28:52
How to sort of define context, these cases.
28:56
And long story short, I feel like that it's like it's a very complicated question that we can like very easily get bogged down.
29:03
Or maybe, put another way, I tend to measure things in terms of how many how many PhDs I need to throw at the problem, and I would guess like this would probably take like one 1.5 pH DS so think like very smart person working for like five years or three years to produce something.
29:20
Like that that would be like rigorous let's say.

Stepan Gershuni
29:24
Maybe the solution here.
29:27
For how I understand what what what I understand is is is just not enforce any system or any rubric but just give this flexibility see how people use it and then.
29:41
Probably that would naturally converge to more or less reusable.
29:47
threat the.
29:49
Best practices and then then that those can be standardized.

Joshua Tan
29:57
David.

David Sneider
29:58
yeah I think.
30:00
Just to step on point you know I think there's something to be said there in terms of.
30:06
Defining this because what's coming up in this conversation is that there's a blurry line potentially between membership and contribution, and so, if we spec this directly to membership.
30:17
it's like it seems like that could be then generalized to contribution I think one other way to think about how to simplify it is making the spec be anchored around who the issuer is so if we say, this is a spec for.
30:32
Issuing credentials from like a given gnosis multi sig because, like.
30:39
This is another thought in terms of the lens for simplification.
30:44
Another anchor point in terms of what is this used for could be just writing the spec around here's how to anchor credentials from a wallet address and then later on.
30:54
You know, we can think about other issuers from there and then from that the parties that are using the standard could, if you would ever kind of credentials, they want, whether it be membership or contributions.

Joshua Tan
31:16
corner.

cswenberg
31:19
There to say, like in the process of.
31:21
healing writing this dog i've been visiting the previous tip actually found this model of looking at the Dow.
31:28
Meta data Center pretty nice potentially for Members as well how we can start with just something like really basic and then over time, potentially add more like agreements on how we want to structure different kinds of data.
31:40
So, for example, and like this one, like you can do organizations have to fit something like this and then down the line we can add for contributors that's not just a member, you can have like contributions.
31:51
Right and then like contributions your and just like we have.
31:54
This just delegates oh like look here for this other schema with its own extensions as well, we can have a process for us as an organization just doing more things like this as a potential mental model.
32:06
But it's just like if it's point about starting with membership allows us to go into contributors as simple as just like adding a contributions, you are I kind of thing where maybe that would actually be within.
32:16
Like the value, I could also see over here my contributions to the organization wherever you want to put that but I guess, I just want to showcase that this mental model of adding more annotations with their own sub schemas could be useful thing for us.

Mendes
32:37
That was actually what i'm a bit so that's coming that I found so nice and so Queen, because you can even just thought.
32:43
You know, like having contributions, you are in many just us slash and the address, and you can represent the URL and linking to another piece of data for specific magnitude and there was a was really it was really nice look at written job.

Joshua Tan
33:00
related the kind words to the to the other team.
33:05
Okay, actually I.
33:09
Might kind of like a as a kind of a data modeling person I kind of my next step generically is just start putting together, like a yard diagram i'm just wondering like what the tables of this diagram should be, though.
33:23
So if we start from like connors proposal.
33:29
So member is so I have a member object and that's like my base object for.
33:36
representing this this this entity right like a member of a bell.
33:41
So this object is.
33:45
So first of everything is being hosted by the Dell right if this is this is supposed to be an extension of value right, this is data that's being hosted by the data itself so it's not being hosted by an issuer.
33:58
it's not being hosted by the Member themselves so it's not like a solid type kind of like system, it is just like the organization itself is hosting.
34:09
This kind of representation of its Member right.
34:12
But that may not, it certainly doesn't fill use case, if a Member confirm their own information.
34:18
And i'm not sure if that's like.
34:20
If that's something we need to sort of discuss like a separate kind of schema that fits their where where does it live or how does it communicate with like the copy of this information system adele that you have a good sense of us.

cswenberg
34:35
I personally wasn't making the assumption that the data has to be hosting this data.
34:39
In my eyes is actually the applications would be the main entry point because that's where we're all building and collect your information would need to share it.
34:47
So if I go to my like someone's deep skills profile i'd wanted to return to the all the teams that this person has worked on and then obviously like the projects they've been a part of their skill values, etc.
34:57
Or if I go to station and they give me users earwax ABC telling me all it'll it'll tell me all the words they're part of that station is aware of like that kind of.

Joshua Tan
35:06
ice.
35:08
Okay.

Unknown Speaker
35:09
So.

Joshua Tan
35:12
I see so essentially like i'm just this.
35:19
So the Member.
35:23
I see.

Unknown Speaker
35:27
Apparently data tables for the existing there represents the arise from your data tables for the existing VIP that someone has proposed, so we could basically look at that to like pull from as examples.

Joshua Tan
35:43
Yes, so um we originally created a in the process of generating via the IP we created this this actually a not the most updated version so.
35:53
We, like, for example, like executors not a thing and proposal content is not a thing actually inside the on.
36:01
This is nothing but it's like these are the tables that we thought so there's like.
36:06
A table of Dallas right and then there's a table of Members it, this is, this is not realistic, because.
36:13
This implies there's like a universal database that holds all the dalles which obviously it's like not what's being represented there.
36:19
But for data modeling purposes, like you just clarifies kind of how the relationships, the way that the data relate to each other, like if you were going to build a database that included all those $4 and all the members of the dalles on top of like entire block chain.
36:37
So they're Dallas proposals members and activity log right and, like the initial the additional things I can imagine us like requiring are things like.
36:48
Just share this folks.
36:57
So feel free to edit as you'd like.
37:01
The the additional tables, I can imagine are so there's a I guess there's a table of.
37:09
of issuers a table of I guess a revocation registry and then, I guess, this would be like a like.
37:20
or issue is different from applications like.
37:24
Like deep skills.

Stepan Gershuni
37:28
I think those could be the same, but we need.
37:31
Extra like stations.
37:34
Right.
37:36
or yeah somewhere where membership credentials will go yeah.

Joshua Tan
37:44
Okay.
37:45
So, this would be like i'm like.
37:47
Not just type that i'm.
37:52
Imagine.
37:57
So, this would be.
37:59
Like it would be like.
38:02
Self here TAO etc right.
38:08
Service there's a remodel you can imagine that being like the category there.
38:16
The.
38:19
Okay, but before I go ahead okay.
38:22
Before I go any further doesn't make sense to have these three tables additionally in like that we want to model.

Mendes
38:37
It makes sense, so quick question.
38:41
The derivative of the revocation civil is it just that.
38:47
Just came to mind right now is it supposed to be revoked address or the revoked at the station, do we have who's issuing that revocation.

Joshua Tan
38:59
yeah we have no.
39:01
yeah we did not figure it out like the details.

Mendes
39:03
of how verification okay.

Joshua Tan
39:06
But I kind of about this would be a.
39:09
Some sort of Community the Community maintain table that says like these issues are bad ignore their their added stations or ignore the thing is the issue.

Mendes
39:21
yeah okay if it's just an overview it's fine I was just really curious about it and sorry about doing this.

Joshua Tan
39:27
No that's cool I like.
39:28
I have no idea how this would actually work in practice.
39:34
I let me just get rid of some of this stuff here, this is like not actually relevant for this conversation.
39:47
And we're just talking about.
39:49
In the context by the end so.
39:53
I guess, we could like talk about like how like.
39:56
You know, so this is.
39:59
If this is data living inside adele.
40:03
You might imagine there's a copy that needs to exist somewhere else, or like what kind of data is the.
40:09
Is the.
40:13
word.
40:16
Like is the dal it's a the issue or holding.
40:21
So we have some sort of table of all the issuer's right.
40:30
So this the issue or probably has a list of Dallas that they are sort of interacting with right.
40:39
They don't care probably they don't care about the proposals, nor do they care about the activity laws, but then they have like underneath.
40:47
They have a list of Members that the associated to each to Dallas right.
40:52
These issues are issuing.
40:56
adaptations.
41:00
Basically there's a essentially a junction table between Dallas and brooks frame.
41:06
For every dial and to get them remember.
41:10
The issue or issues in at the station.
41:13
So this is in some sense there's a foreign key from.
41:18
The barely this thing here.
41:22
This thing here right.
41:30
And there is a one to many between thousand members, because the Member can be in a Member can be multiple been multiple devils in the bed.

Stepan Gershuni
41:44
And replication would be just want to want to at this stage, so any I just a temporary reward.

Joshua Tan
41:51
there's something that.
41:52
Is a good oh by the issue okay.

Stepan Gershuni
41:56
yeah so so So the idea for for invocations, at least if if that was brought up by gosh I think what he meant by this is that is your can revoke.
42:08
At a station that was incorrectly issued or expired, or something went wrong.
42:14
And then his issue is.
42:17
And then, and then the separate tables for issues where we can see either end them and delete them or have their trust score so that it's more trust lists.

Joshua Tan
42:29
make sense, so this is something issuer so every issuer has their own for a list revocations.
42:38
yeah.

Mendes
42:39
And sorry just to understand how these revocations are created, what happens what gets represented if I leave it out, and then I joined again, do you have a revocation is the revocation just specific to that first other station, you have a second one.

Stepan Gershuni
42:59
So relocation is just a list of so each each education has ID and then replication is this compact list of those ideas that are not valid anymore, so when you verify, for then show your work verify signature and then you look in the rotation table if it is not there, then it's fine.

Mendes
43:19
yeah so it's a one to one see look for the second membership you just issue a new other station and.
43:25
The application that can get it was just want to know what.

cswenberg
43:30
This is an example of I leave the dial the new joining again if my first access station is revoked you don't undo revoke you have to get a new hottest station right.

Mendes
43:41
yeah.

cswenberg
43:42
yeah that seems young.
43:46
But.

Stepan Gershuni
43:47
That also gives your history so as long as those are private you as a holder, you can share it if you want to prove that you've been in this out previously and and laughed and then joining again but yes we discussed last time it shouldn't be public.
44:06
Just to this privacy.

Rouven
44:13
So I guess I turned to delay because I only had an onboarding yesterday and I haven't had the time to block this time.
44:21
On the revocation I think there is a bunch of different aspects, how you can think about verification of one on one side, you could.
44:28
say something is not valid anymore, because you remove the verification of a credential or you work with expired dates to say like.
44:38
make a membership that you're part of something can be issued like once a month or something, because you might want to be able to prove that the correctness of the credential is still true even if it's not anymore that you're not a more active so.
44:53
The the concern, often with.
44:57
Doing revocations where the issuer can revoke it in the future you're not really sovereign with the data so so someone can just basically.
45:05
Later, say that was what am I your unique your employer or your TAO and they, for some reason you left on like negative terms and they might say, oh.
45:14
We just erase all history by revoking everything that person might have gathered over time and so i'm advocate and he's to consider.
45:25
Where possible to work with at the stations which are short lived and Robert give them are often and if you have situations that you want to prove.
45:34
That you are continuously in the Dow you might be to give to someone hey I was here, and I was a member, every every single month over the last 12 months and that gives you the reputation.
45:46
you're looking for, rather than to say, like, I have one and it's always valid and I need to revoke it so i'm just suggested to rethink revocation and other stations in that context.

Stepan Gershuni
45:59
there's also the bands on the overall architecture, because in this system is decentralized.
46:06
storage is decentralized this problem once arise because in like unnecessary system so usually the credentials issue can store with the holder with the member of the Dow in their wallet and they can always, even if it was your world, they can still prove the fact that it was valid.
46:26
And, or they received it, and I think for the system again that that's the larger question but.
46:36
It also not centralized if this is not centralized database, if it is.
46:41
Using something like ceramic network or kepler or something like this that data would at least three May with the holder.
46:50
So if.
46:52
You would still keep your copy.

Rouven
46:55
So if we use verified essentials, they have the fields, which is like status, and if you use replication mechanism in there.
47:05
You cannot prove any more correctness, through their standard way, so the correctness is is the WHO is the issuer.
47:14
has issued a certain set of keys was that signed with the keys of the insurance and has not been revoked so wants to might have the data.
47:24
Based on the stand that you might not be able anymore to to have like the correctness verification, you can show it similar how you can show and expired.
47:36
ID cards, but you cannot swipe it anymore, it will not give you a results if you have implemented developer credentials that correct corrected.
47:44
So I think that's, so I think I think we're on the same page that even if you have the data, then you can still show it to someone, but if we want to use the the standard how you can validate the correctness, then this might be like removing your chance to prove that.

Stepan Gershuni
48:03
i'm not sure I need to check if that's part of the standard, but I think it would still work like you can still even if it's a ball.
48:10
You would still be able to verify signature in the credential, it would still match, because those are two different steps when when you when you're as a verify when you get a clean and show you first or.
48:22
I don't know like in defensive order can be different, but you verify consistency of the credential that sitting signature is belongs to the issuer and the data is the one wasn't on purpose.
48:34
And then you verify if it's part of revocation registry, so you can still validate that it was it is correct credential but it's also remarked.
48:50
But.
48:51
All that so status, I don't think it's I don't think it's part it's like it's a necessary part of the standard because verifying credentials are should be immutable.
49:03
When you want to change something when you're late renewing your driver license you actually get a new one and the old one is getting revoked.

Rouven
49:12
Yes, I think that okay so there's a bunch of people using this credential standards.
49:18
Coming from a very traditional means API you have a driver's license that was issued valid for what are five years we're now in in in the world where everything is digital, so why would you have something which needs to have an ability to revoke it.
49:34
If you can alternatively just issue something on a more regular basis, because it costs you barely anything and that worldwide what, for which use cases are is revocation more important than it used to be important.
49:52
To stop someone else ID card working to get access to your building if you got fired.
49:57
But let's say on your computer system like every every 24 hours you can just ask someone to re authenticate by whatever.
50:04
Entering the password once they get a session key and now they can use it for 24 hours and i'm not saying like sorry I guess from competing late some don't want to reveal too much, but i'm just trying to.
50:15
provide this perspective that we can have a bunch of these data points which can live in very different contexts it's.
50:24
A very small and very like independent without much complexity that you're depending on anyone's issue or to revoke this and you will see this in particular in a.
50:36
In maybe a Doc critics, or like where people attest to each other, there is no authority to decide whether there should be relocation or not so many of these things are much more short lifts and then it was maybe in a traditional world.
50:52
And again it's not one or the other, I think we will see both i'm just suggesting that we should keep the option, maybe in our minds that many of these things by particular location, but maybe more short lived expired dates.

Unknown Speaker
51:06
I think one of the things that will help us answer some of those questions hires and basically.

Eseoghene Mentie
51:12
One of the last one of some of these questions is a survey, we said we wanted to send.

Stepan Gershuni
51:17
Some doubts to help us with some of these questions that we have.
51:22
to know how important it is for vacations for them to have the power to revoke or would they prefer to like give chocolate credentials, or those kind of use cases we don't have those answers yet, so we need to get that survey out a SAP I guess.

Joshua Tan
51:41
So.
51:43
Does anybody want to volunteer to.
51:45
Have a short meeting.
51:48
Or maybe just help produce like a initial version of that standard sorry about that.
51:53
Please do volunteer to like right the standard for us.
51:56
But uh.
51:58
That survey, it could be like extremely short stick a few questions.
52:03
posed a few questions to the chart.

Eseoghene Mentie
52:08
I can do it just if you can post, the questions I have some but I won't be sure that i'm covering the questions and everybody has already take on this whole.
52:20
The questions with the expiry expired credentials or revoking credentials.

Joshua Tan
52:26
But no one in there and then there'll be I don't know which other ones, people have.
52:33
let's post, I mean, I have a.
52:36
Few already that we want to ask, but maybe, just like put together, like a short draft and sure you can just like create a page in the notion itself in the project Doc.
52:48
And then share it in the telegram church and maybe give folks a few days to respond and add their own kind of questions and then.
52:56
Maybe we'll be the makes sense it's just like refined out condense it down to like you know, obviously there's gonna be some duplication were overlap.
53:04
And then I can we can I guess all kind of like put some effort into like putting this in front of a few people I can post it in like this big giant list of Dallas that i'm in and just try to get like you know X amount of responses.
53:21
Actually, we can just put that in the dashboard one sort out telegram.
53:27
And maybe try to get some feedback from the experts there.
53:31
So Okay, we are running.
53:35
close to the end of the of our time, I think we actually got through like a tremendous amount today, which is kind of amazing once again shout out to Connor for producing like an amazing document that helped us structure, and I think move us light years forward the um.
53:55
I think I don't know if if there's anybody who would be interested in doing this, but maybe a week, if some if there are people who wanted to join me, we can schedule some time next week before this call to just try to refine.
54:10
This initial data model.
54:12
That we kind of like produced.
54:15
Like collectively.
54:17
refined it so we can present it and go over like what's going on there.
54:22
In time for our next call this Friday that would be amazing.
54:28
If anybody wants to raise their hand for let me know and does awesome.
54:34
cool.
54:36
All right, and that's it awesome alright so let's try to schedule time.
54:44
Sometime next week and actually what I would just do that now, or if you guys wanted to stay after this call a little bit I can turn off recording.
54:53
But I was just schedule that call for some time next week.
54:57
awesome and I guess unless the folks have any others for comments they want to put out there, make sure they wanted to get it into the notes for this session or they want to see pretty quickly get done over the next course of next week.
55:14
Okay awesome and that case.
55:17
let's uh let's do this yeah i'll let you know why don't we will schedule a ribbon and.
55:24
i'll post the the time of the chat you can invite.

Rouven
55:26
marcelo assignment but awesome Thank you alright.

Joshua Tan
55:30
I guess thanks everyone thanks.