1. Josh Tan

2. Cent Hosten

3. Shawn Grubb

4. John Richardson

5. Isaac Mutemi

6. Wolfram Schulte

7. Matt Johnson

8. Raine Scott

9. Quadri Oguntade

1. Introductions

2. Updates

3. Questions

• Wolfram Schulte
Software programming tools and runtimes
Codex standard law conference
Previous work with Microsoft

• Isaac Mutemi
Civil engineer
Information economics
Josh: Interested in learning more about best practices on how to educate people around DAOs

• John
Founder at Ethelo
Group decisions in web2 space and local governments
Moving into web3
Working on making a soulbound NFT for digital id
Interested in standards for fair decision making

• Shawn
Index Coop
Governance communications
Exploring community oriented perspective
Token based perspective
Metagovernance index

• Matt
DAO participant and operator
Fire Eyes
Do metagovernance
Drop proposals and ensure participation is active in other communities
Interest in coordination primitives

• Raine
Fintech and web2 identity space background
Working on building a decentralized ID solution
Got into space to reduce scams and hacks in the space

• Quadri Oguntade
Working on a product DAO

• EIP
Name changed to DAO API to better reflect what the standard is
Standardizes a DAO reporting mechanism for DAOs

• Adoption
Conversations with Messari, Etherscan, DeepDAO

• Wolfram
Isn’t the standard going through the EIP process what ratifies the standard?
Josh: This process will take some time, and is progress, but we want to begin implementing before full ratification
Josh: Also working through CAIP to see if we can get adoption through that process
Josh: We are also working on a DAOIP to move more quickly with DAO improvement proposals

• Matt
On Messari: Are the conversations with Messari and Etherscan happening in parallel or on different tracks?
Josh: Practically working in parallel, though Messari is slightly ahead
Josh: Interested in the proposal standard for their governance tool

• Wolfram
Should we have a DAO to see how to move DAO proposals forward.
Sort of like self-testing processes
Josh: Part of the issue is that DAOs have many different proposal processes
Josh: The goal is not to standardize how DAOs conduct proposals, but to standardize how proposal information is consumed
Josh: DAO contributors find the governance process tedious and complicated in comparison to the building flow
Matt: The compensation part is also a frustrating factor for DAO contributors
Josh: Re governance methodologies: need to find new forms of governance rather than modeling off of models from nation states, for example

• Raine
What type of new governance structures are you excited about?
Josh: Thinking about Station, Closer, Spruce, SuperDAO: New folks building new tools.
Josh: This is a wave two. And some of the assumptions of of wave one are being questioned
Josh: DAOs are starting to question how close they are to being Coops, but also many are run like corporations. How do we recognize these different waves and accommodate them all?
Matt: Seasons are becoming part of the process.
Josh: New compensation models like SourceCred
Cent: Use of NLP and ML for making proposals?
Josh: Look at both Civic Tech and Decidim
Josh: These tools don’t yet have capacity to output structured and useful proposals.
Josh: Post internet innovations in governance:
Open source is a new governance and production model. Leveraging licenses and protocols like Git
Peer production (like Wikipedia). The kind of production model is innovative.

Joshua Tan
10:43
Folks might be interested in this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRZYuoeDb-LIbBLjHVh5Egoynf3UrYbilvLJGa33MfbhPDmQLv_hQDEiD-oD1uXcbdX3cH6UI8J8cDk/pub

Cent
13:18
Meeting Minutes: https://daostar.notion.site/Strike-Team-22-Community-Call-5-366008196c094899aa462a70e202fa17

Shawn Grubb
18:42
+1

Joshua Tan
22:10
John: see https://www.co-owner.xyz/

John Richardson - Ethelo
22:21
thank you!

Joshua Tan
23:02
The cofounder is Gavin

John Richardson - Ethelo
26:57
Hi Raine, nice to meet you! what is your company again?

raine scott
27:28
https://www.verisoul.xyz/

John Richardson - Ethelo
28:06
Thanks!

Cent
32:08
Draft: https://daostar.one/Membership-via-Attestations-Working-Paper-6cac4b18f6ee4146bd58498b189a8cfa

Cent
32:49
DAO API EIP: https://daostar.one/EIP

John Richardson - Ethelo
44:08
I apologize, I have another call I have to jump to!

Shawn Grubb
45:58
for example, election methodologies

Isaac Mutemi
54:56
👌Very insightful question and answer, Cent and Josh.

Joshua Tan
57:35
Hmm, technically that’s happening already in civic tech.

Joshua Tan
01:03:29
Civic tech

Joshua Tan
01:03:35
Decidim

Cent
01:05:01
Thanks all.

Unknown Speaker
00:00
In a watch your.

Matt Johnson
00:02
topic was really cool.

Joshua Tan
00:05
Thanks which One the one of the Dallas were showing point.

Matt Johnson
00:08
ya know the Dow Dallas ones.

Joshua Tan
00:11
house yes yeah.
00:14
Now, there was a.
00:16
It was a 10 out of 1008 hour long workshop where is just a giant therapy session about what are the problems with those and.
00:28
Part of the issue, there is just trying to convert what I would say is um.
00:33
How do I say it.
00:36
Part of the problem, there is trying to convert the problems that douse face like the sort of like day to day problems into research like chunk of research projects that you can imagine, like a PhD or a postdoc taking on.

Unknown Speaker
00:53
yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:55
it's kind of like a translational problem there of how to convert this problem into like a scientific problem.
01:03
or a minimal designs to some sort of like a some sort of rigorous approach but.

Matt Johnson
01:10
Rather, the.
01:11
participant behaviors and attitudes.
01:14
And psychology or more around the dynamics of participation.

Joshua Tan
01:20
yeah actually a lot of the questions were around like up and it's participation very clearly, this is a problem that we all face the.
01:26
Yes, and there the question I guess the one is just as try to understand what exactly research already exists out there and building a pipeline, essentially the pour some of that in this space.
01:40
I personally am super interested in like these kinds of pipelines for converting let's say like academic academic research into let's say implementable or.
01:56
more concrete things that can be actually implemented in adele like technologically.

Matt Johnson
02:01
But my life's work is taking academic research in the world and for me it's open strategy, you know agile strategy and trying to create a technology that people can actually adopt.
02:14
Because I read about this amazing research empirical evidence that shows what are best practices to get people to collaborate coordinate together.
02:22
Effectively, to achieve an outcome, and then you go in and say i've never had i've never worked for a company ever in my life that used any of these best practices.
02:30
So he's like Okay, and now it's trying to code in those best practices, into a system that reinforces best practices, as opposed to just giving them another tool to store project artifacts.

Joshua Tan
02:44
yeah I prefer not just the tool some level of finessing of that.
02:51
Okay, so let me let's just jump into this, we got some folks in here, so this is the.
02:58
First off hi everyone thanks for joining, for I believe this is the fourth official now star Community call.
03:06
Maybe the fifth I honestly I lost track sent are you um did you create a like a meeting minutes for this one.

Cent
03:15
yeah i'm putting that you guys give me a minute yeah so thanks.

Joshua Tan
03:20
Okay.

Cent
03:21
Great so you want to make a note that we're going to transition to sharing the Community house.

Joshua Tan
03:28
Oh yes, actually good point um yes for those of you who actually not only knew, but also we've been here previously.
03:38
We are going to start posting these calls, along with like actually.
03:43
All the doubts or calls or, as many of them as makes sense to the public website so if you go to desktop one, you can see, like all of the things that was going on, please.
03:54
working papers, including a new one that please don't read because it's not really ready, but we decided to post it anyways because it's quote unquote escape or version I like I get cringe like heavy cringe when we do things like that, as well anyways gotta roll forward.
04:10
Beyond beyond so these will be going to be posted publicly so people who can't make it can only see what's going on.

Unknown Speaker
04:19
Okay.

Joshua Tan
04:20
So right, these are the dashboard one Community calls and which basically just opportunity for folks from the Community to come in to see what's going on ask questions about.
04:31
The the desktop standards and the desktop one organization and what we're all trying to achieve in building the Republic Open Source infrastructure for Dallas.
04:43
The i'm josh and the executive director of medical and a computer scientist and mathematician at Oxford Stanford and I helped lead any of these conversations about star.
04:57
The this particular conversation is happening, a little bit off because it had to move got moved from last week typically we have these are co located with the engineering calls.
05:12
What we called like the stripe team calls in nascar have, in this case they're going to be separate, so we have an entire hour just reserved for conversations and questions and discussions related to the down standard.
05:25
So as kind of to start off maybe we can do is go around the zoom table and have folks just briefly introduce themselves, I see some familiar faces so maybe.
05:40
Especially if you're new we do encourage you, I encourage you to do, though, unmute yourself and introduce yourself awesome yeah.

wolfram schulte
05:49
Hello everyone everyone, and I will from throaty.
05:54
My background is i've worked a long time at Microsoft Microsoft research and copper and cooperation and then also Facebook my expertise is in.
06:06
Software engineering tools programming languages run times.
06:11
I recently was at Stanford Codex future law Conference, where I ran into joshua and very much interested to see what's going on and.
06:24
And quickly ramping up on what happened and blockchain so I wasn't passive.
06:31
observer of blockchain since I worked on traditional technologies at Microsoft and Facebook, but I think I want to switch and this seems to be an exciting project and i'm happy to take any questions you might have.

Joshua Tan
06:48
amazing jumping straight into the rabbit hole.
06:54
Great walk more from.
07:09
me yeah we can maybe just speak a little bit louder.

Isaac Mutemi
07:16
Oh yes.

Joshua Tan
07:18
There we go yeah actually that worked up already.

Isaac Mutemi
07:28
So hi everyone.
07:30
i'm Isaac.
07:32
I joined medical.
07:35
About slightly more than two months ago, and so after the introductory conversation with sense I looked at the options for different communities that one could get engaged and they lacked what the big purpose for that was so my background.
07:53
i'm trained as a civil engineer and have been working in and i'm situated in Canada, the moment I had been working in politics and policy for read about six years now, and my particular fascination is with problems on information economics.
08:13
Just understand the elect What was it.
08:17
The summer I think, maybe, having worked from or Mart someone mentioned, I think it was mark was mentioning the problem of.
08:25
Excellent to such being produced and never been consumed by the most companies so Those are some of the most fascinating problems that.
08:34
are really intriguing to me and I recently got an opportunity to work more closely with political leaders in the country.
08:42
So i'm very fascinated now to understand and tap into the fresh thinking on how to apply computing to ship, the political spaces, especially in an African context for those of you who are aware we're not Kenya is apparently becoming quite of.
09:04
Teachers with regards to be technology companies Africa Microsoft presented setup is in Canada, they set up the African Development Center.
09:15
Google also has a Center here and a few of the big shots health centers yet so they seem to be applying this using this as their.
09:22
nesting point to the rest of Africa so yeah so there's a great deal of optimism and fascination and enthusiasm about the tech space in Kenya, but not enough, in my view.
09:34
On applying this to understanding our own political spaces, which is what where my interest is particularly in so i'm happy to be hope to learn as much as I can thanks.

Joshua Tan
09:46
amazing book my book.
09:49
I would actually say that i'm super interested in kind of better understanding the potential for I don't know about standardization, but like I didn't find best practices and educating people around the political dimensions of Dallas and crypto.
10:04
That said, that's right one currently is very much a kind of like as focusing on technical standards.
10:11
So it's like working with all like down to only companies in Dallas to identify like this is how like, if you want to use nfc for identity, this is how, how should work in a way that's like interoperable between you know all the different systems for doing that so just does that.
10:28
anybody else wants to unmute to introduce himself as he down there how's it going.

John Richardson - Ethelo
10:36
Everyone.
10:36
Are you.
10:37
i'm putting me josh.

Joshua Tan
10:39
I guess i'm calling you out though.

John Richardson - Ethelo
10:40
that's okay okay.
10:42
So, my name is john Richardson i'm the founder and CEO of a fellow and we're.
10:49
Decentralized decision making platform we've we've been around for about 10 years we do public engagement processes and good decisions for.
10:57
us in the Web to space it's been like that last decade, mostly local governments and but different levels of public and private institutions.
11:05
are making the move into web three we've been working with get coin basically developing governance tooling or taking our existing stack really starting to integrate into web three.
11:17
So that dow's and other kind of crypto based organizations can start to use our particular take on group decision making, for their governance, infrastructure and so.
11:30
You know and i'm quite interested in Tanzania even what you just said a moment ago josh brown M and F T is being used for digital identity well we're going to be incorporating our TAO as Canadian cooperative.
11:42
Under Canadian law, and so you know issuing some kind of soul bound and fit for each member of our democracy dial.
11:50
As a part of being a member of this legal entity The co op is you know, on my mind so i'm very interested in standards and and we also think about.
11:58
standards when we do our digital engagement process is, what are the standards what's this was a stands for a digital.
12:04
digitally and decision making process, how do you ensure that it's fair and representative and all these kind of different components so that's our focus is governance, thank you.

Joshua Tan
12:15
So awesome.
12:17
The What did you work with a startup to register that Canadian TAO co op because I.
12:28
I remember talking to someone who's working exactly on this setting up legal infrastructure for dollars in Canada.

John Richardson - Ethelo
12:35
Oh no but i'm interested we're working with the learning lori Stein McCarthy Tetra and she's been kind of looking at a Co op as a dad as a crypto strategy for a while.
12:46
I think there are a couple of others in Canada, that have tried this rough but I haven't connected yet.

Joshua Tan
12:52
Okay i'm gonna pry to spend a little time and just go through like I cannot remember the name the name of this person for the life of me.
13:00
But there's definitely a person in Montreal doing thinking about this doing legal tech.
13:08
focus on COPs and Dallas so sounds like you guys should be connected.

John Richardson - Ethelo
13:13
i'm super interested yeah please do okay.

Joshua Tan
13:15
I will, I will look this up.
13:17
It was done welcome really good to have you here.
13:23
i'm not going to call out anybody else, but if okay Sean.

Shawn Grubb
13:27
Please yeah so i'll jump in there guys folks i'm i'm an interloper so i'm a practitioner.
13:33
i'm listening in to try and learn as much as I can from you guys currently I work i've been in crypto since 2017 i've been engaged now with the index cooperative.
13:46
And I work governance communications specifically for them, and the reason why i'm here is i've kind of like i've got about four different interest we're now playing with.
13:55
Governance voting, both from a token holder perspective, but also from a Community manager Community perspective and how nfc is and Polygon can work with that.
14:04
we're working on a Meta governance maturity model, and I know I use the term Meta governance differently than a medigap Committee does and then also working on a down South assessment tool so that's why i'm here.

Joshua Tan
14:18
very much welcome, we are always super glad that practitioners are than most of these people, the people going coming to these calls, including myself, myself included, are like an armchair theorists when it comes to you know thousand communities.
14:33
could have real people.

wolfram schulte
14:34
Ask it short question Sean can you repeat Where are you coming from Is this a company is a man.

Shawn Grubb
14:43
yeah so the organization i'm working for right now is a decentralized autonomous organization, the Dow which is called the index cooperative or index coop.
14:53
and create.
14:54
index products for crypto.

wolfram schulte
14:56
Okay, thank you.

Matt Johnson
15:06
i'll jump in sorry to jump jump in front of your reign you go next my name is matt Johnson I am I am a dhow participant and operator.
15:18
I devil a bunch of different towns, but the one that i'm most serious about now is I was selected as a core operator, for if you've heard of fire eyes, they do a lot of.
15:28
Projects support and sort of Meta governance they're trying to expand out of their original core team for folks and expand that with what they're calling their wildfire Dow, and so I was.
15:42
There was a whole vetting process and I selected one of 18 people that's been brought in as a core operator for their different.
15:49
Working Groups, I am part of the public goods working group, which supports DNS and github excuse me, good coin.
15:59
And we're basically a metric governance organization, so we we do Meta governance, so we basically participate drop proposals and make sure that we can get voting going to keep these projects very supported, and you know active.
16:18
On the side note i'm also a project founder.
16:23
And what's really got me excited about.
16:26
Dow Star and work with josh is trying to come up with standards to move the whole doubt ecosystem forward and.
16:36
championing this concept of coordination primitives as a standard that can help with composer ability and interoperability between Dallas and within Dallas so.
16:48
i'm always excited about any group that can take that on as a third party unbiased third party and promote that so that's one of the reasons i'm here and sticking it out and participating.

Joshua Tan
17:01
amazing good to see you again.
17:05
I think our last intros rain want to quickly introduce yourself.

raine scott
17:10
Thanks josh pretty pretty new here I come from the fintech and kind of web to identity space, along with two other my good friends and co founder more working on building a new decentralized identity solution.
17:29
kind of similar to prefer humanity and civic, but I think we have a very interesting take on it, making it more cross chain compatible and a lot more seamless so I originally got into the space to try to reduce the amount of scams and hacks going on.
17:50
Obviously identity has very interesting implications for governance and building your online reputation as well, so we want to try to be cognizant of all the possible use cases I think will be building out kind of custom solutions for Dallas as well yeah.

Joshua Tan
18:08
amazing welcoming.
18:11
Alright, so let's just jump.

Cent
18:14
hey josh I think we have a new guest since.
18:18
Yes, audrey.

Quadri Oguntade
18:21
yeah I have one color is my name me.
18:26
yeah so i'm pretty new also, I think I had done in one meeting previously and I in terms of like my background, you know product manager.
18:35
At Amazon, but also currently in a building it out kind of a product out to really attract products even to displace workspace and I think some of the interest and.
18:49
kind of what people see and audio Andrew coordination know how do you do like security 4000 order will create projects so what's interesting.

Joshua Tan
19:01
it's awesome welcome welcome good to have you here.
19:06
So let me just rehash so These calls are kind of just an open forum to discuss the existing standard and to.
19:15
feel questions from the people here what I can do, though, is.
19:21
share my screen briefly.
19:24
give you a quick update on you know what's going on.
19:28
Usually, we actually run through these updates anyways because this is kind of like.
19:32
This is integrated into the kind of like the engineering team calls.
19:36
But because the engineering team is like here right now, I will just do those updates for you all.
19:43
The um.
19:46
So you can find the current standard at Dassault once actually IP yeah before the 24 this actually recently got renamed from just.
19:56
Decentralized autonomous organizations to down API just to be a little bit clear about what's actually being implemented post here because essentially dahlia awry as we've implemented here is essentially an API for Dallas especially meeting an offering API.
20:13
The um.
20:15
And what the standard does is it defines a kind of.
20:21
A reporting or let's say a data standard for gals that are that is intended to enhance that discover ability legibility proposal simulation and more interoperability between tooling and the rough just what's going on here of these json blob is.
20:41
The minimum possible in order ground what a doubt is, and if you go to the rationale that kind of explains what's going on is that in the standard we assume that all Dallas presents at least like two basic primitives they have membership.
20:57
meeting people or not, so people other Dallas potentially about whatever entities, the dog wants to represent and behavior which is inherited directly from the conch the smart contract itself.
21:09
and fundamentally the point of doubt is that there is some sort of like non trivial relationship between membership behavior meaning.
21:18
The membership usually has some sort of ability to impact the behavior of the contract itself, and this is all that we assume in the standard.
21:27
proposals are one way of relating one very standard way of relating membership behavior meaning like essentially that there are objects that Members can interact with and which you know if and when they're executed or something they become behaviors of the Dow.
21:42
The.
21:44
Dow your is was against its kind of modeled off of token ui for and if tease and it splits into besides the typical things like name and description splits into Members, you arrived proposals ui.
21:58
Activity log your eye, which basically includes things like you know votes, creating proposals many proposals things like that, basically, some sort of interaction between Member in a proposal and then governance ui which is really just going to a.
22:13
Some sort of normatively a dot empty file, but a static file that people can write down their governance, where the Constitution kind of following the bottle of.
22:22
Typical Open Source projects, especially large Open Source projects which typically host a governance empty file articulating how governance works inside that.
22:32
I saw inside of that open source community.
22:35
So this is just like the five minutes refresher on.
22:40
The IP we also recently released a membership be added stations working paper which goes into an accusation based data model for down membership.
22:51
And what's really happening there is trying to articulate the fact that you know in this ecosystem data is coming from lots of different places.
22:59
it's coming from Dallas so down sort of proposed added stations it's coming from users themselves so self our stations that just think traditional CDs there it's coming from the.
23:13
peers of a particular user.
23:17
Like within adele and it's coming from the.
23:23
let's say like service providers, you know, like a user might log into given service provider like station or closer or backdrop.
23:31
And this is not their data just using as a service but that that application and also issuing certain kinds of decisions about who that person is or what they've done right, so this is a.
23:46
very basic draft that just got released.
23:50
is still being very, very actively edited so just keep that in mind, but we still love to read your comments, if you have any sort of ideas.
23:59
and feelings about you know what's being proposed here.
24:03
And this is being sort of actively worked on by a bunch of data roaming folks that are working on let's say these kinds of them.
24:11
Everything from like what do we see these $2 identity, including like disco station spruce you know different folks like working in the space.
24:23
Lastly, i'll just give a really quick update on the progress of the.
24:30
Adoption so right now.
24:35
who's kind of our basically our technical lead he's also the technical lead of the mullet v3.
24:42
sort of.
24:44
mistakes which is developing Malik v3 is putting together the first reference mentation from Allah.
24:52
kidding who dropped in a little bit earlier is working with them on that the.
24:59
De org is helping us produce the gnosis safe reference implementation, and we have data stack working on the second reference implementation.
25:11
So those were obviously doing things a little bit tight, but these things together we're hoping to have one ready in, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks, the.
25:23
See.
25:26
terms of fundraising we've gotten the gnosis gnosis just approved around Fo has approved around, so we have currently up to around 120 K total and funding.
25:38
and waiting to hear back from different places.

Unknown Speaker
25:43
let's see.

Joshua Tan
25:45
and on oh right adoption, probably the most important thing, so actually This is something that just came just happened out of from Amsterdam.
25:54
So we had seriously conversations with either scan with Missouri, and I mean we've been having conversation with details flashy er who's the CEO has been is one of the co authors of the standard.
26:07
But essentially things are looking good there's a kind of chicken and egg problem where you can scan wants, you know more dollars to be adopting standard.
26:15
Whereas, you know for delta delta said kind of want them like he does get adopted but we're kind of aware of this, are working together to just figure out like, how can we finalize the IP as fast as humanly possible, so that these different service providers feel what's the right word.
26:33
feel secure in adopting the standard, as is as opposed to like adopting and then like being forced to change it like a few months later, which would be clearly bad, especially when you're operating at the scale that like you know either scan saris is operating.
26:48
Right now there's conversations, just like are relatively technical figuring out like okay if we're operating this kind of API.
26:55
What we're not operating, it was with the dollars are but you know what can I guarantees other did they need to be like verification services or subscription services attached to these api's.
27:05
What basically if you know these are service providers are pulling information from these endpoints what can they expect in terms of you know, the know how these inputs are hosted.
27:18
So these are slightly more sort of tackle questions where we're trying to figure out how can we offer better guarantees, but it's making I think pretty good progress and should be just a matter of time before we can, I think, announce hopefully an official massari or either scan integration.
27:39
yeah.

wolfram schulte
27:40
we're from just one question so if this becomes a standard so what's the process of getting it through ethereum if it's an era P standard and wouldn't that be the trigger that it's actually being implemented.

Joshua Tan
27:55
So yeah it's already going through the IP process for a theorem.
28:01
And it will, and I mean essentially it is already IP you can sort of see the github link the young, for that is sort of be finalized is my take like.
28:12
Usually, a long time, usually takes upwards of like you know, six months or something so for various reasons, we prefer not to wait that long because, like Dallas are already building on this in some sense and tool to developers all already building on this because it's like just necessary.
28:30
So we one thing that we're doing right now is working with.
28:36
If you're familiar with CA IP or Casa, so this is the chain agnostic improvement proposal.
28:43
it's I mean, these are all just github repos right.
28:46
But a CFP has like the IP 10, which is a very useful standard for defining like chain, a chain addresses across multiple chains and we.
28:58
are reaching out to them to kind of figure out maybe we can sort of like really some of these standards through that process.
29:03
And separately we're just like implementing just because we kind of need this because we have a lot of like working groups talking about the digital different standards that people are.
29:12
proposing new working groups, all the time to have just a separate down IP process that we can sort of like move faster.
29:24
On rather than because, like he IP is essentially I mean it's kind of like set up for like basic protocol upgrades right.
29:33
You want to move super slow when it comes to like that level of the stack whereas like.
29:40
The kind of data standards that we're thinking about are much closer to like you know let's like a typical API standards for like you know electronic health records right.
29:48
We just need to get a lot of things like a lot of data to work and to agree that this is like what this data field means.
29:55
which I think requires just a different kind of operational process and we need to be able to move faster on these things so anyways that's kind of the thinking behind starting a new down IP process for facilitating these on these kinds of standards.

Unknown Speaker
30:12
Thank you.

Joshua Tan
30:16
yeah.
30:20
Any questions things people want discuss or just like confusion about what is it down these are just open open forum for people to sort of chat and.

Matt Johnson
30:32
i'd rather ask about massara you.
30:36
are both these conversations at different States of.
30:41
Moving forward with either scan and massara that pretty much in parallel, because i'm very curious about the governor product from a sorry and their discover ability for data, which is obviously what they're doing now with it good visions, to go much farther with that.

Joshua Tan
30:58
yeah I mean, I would say they're happening in parallel, I think I would stay as far as actually a little bit further ahead, but it's because we've been talking with them longer the.
31:10
and obviously with the government product they're trying to like they're very interested in consuming proposals.
31:15
Because it's like a lot of what they need this or like pole.
31:18
So one of the things were kind of like figuring out is whether we need to extend the current like proposal section at the standard will probably admit like a secondary look at night on standard for this, which is part of the reason for having our own separate down it process.
31:33
But yeah they're very interested in like that proposals objects and how to pull proposals and one of the things that you know.
31:40
Hopefully we can sort of contribute, and you know, improve as the quality of their product or anybody who wants to consume these proposals.
31:48
is to sort of facilitate not only consumption of entree proposals which they're clean they're already doing, but also snapshot and.
31:57
Even like discord proposals because I love me, you have been through like one of these our proposal systems, they are.
32:05
kind of annoying and they have like multistage processes across like they're four stages across four different technical stacks.
32:13
it's kind of hard keeping track, I honestly, just like I find it really difficult and i'm like i'm going in there and asking them for money right it's like takes forever.
32:20
So this is one of those things where will be nice to you know have our consolidate API that's pulling in integrating this information, so you can see, like these are all proposal's at all the stages.
32:30
And just be able to see you know, like, I have a heads up view of what's going on, without you know us service provider having to go to every single Downs for do this, but you know, on your own, which would be extremely annoying and basically what it was already currently does.

Matt Johnson
32:44
yeah well, I mean.

Joshua Tan
32:45
Although, to be fair, they only do it for compound really I mean the Avi I think.

Matt Johnson
32:49
So yeah yeah I mean I because I think the the biggest need is going to be where proposals first set up for discussion forums on discourse and Commonwealth.
33:00
Those are the keys to the data because that's where you need I mean it's getting it at that point when it first comes up for discussion.
33:07
Before it goes to an off chain or on chain boat and those obviously are all centralized services that would have to be a one off route negotiations to get access through an API or something.

wolfram schulte
33:20
here's a very stupid question shouldn't you have a doubt, in order to in terms of see how you move down proposals forward.
33:30
So do a self application.

Joshua Tan
33:34
um What do you mean you need to have a doubt to.
33:39
run $1 proposal you mean like TAO star to be a doubt, or are you talking about.

wolfram schulte
33:44
yeah So if you want to move.
33:48
move proposals fast forward through agreement, then you can found a doubt, so you apply your own your own.
33:59
ideas and see is how we would have to set up the voting structure and the proposals to really make quickly progress on getting proposals adapted so so just apply your own medicine for for this purpose.
34:17
Already idea.

Joshua Tan
34:20
I think i'm not totally sure what's being proposed, because what i'm.
34:26
Different Dallas have different proposal systems right, some of them have like 10 day you know timeouts some of them have like you know, like there's like.
34:37
Very different for some of the snapshot some of them don't some of us discord to generate sort of like initial proposal, some of them use discourse.
34:46
All them eventually usually do go to a smart contract, but oftentimes like.
34:51
there's no on like a lot of times there's, not even a like an entree and vote in the smart contract it's just like a it gets executed by some treasurer right.
34:59
Who like consumes and off chain vote like a snapshot vote, which you know doesn't sound very secure slashdot in the spirit of like a blockchain like a what we we think adele should do.
35:11
But oftentimes just works for that organization so it's very different for different Dallas with different organizations and that's the issue.

wolfram schulte
35:20
Okay, I got it sorry.
35:23
i'm jumping.

Joshua Tan
35:24
Various is annoying to me, that is for a lot of Dallas, especially the bigger Dallas, it is quite.
35:31
time consuming to manage a proposal and get a past, I think this is something actually This is something that came up in Amsterdam is one of the downsides causes there are contributors to Dallas.
35:42
who came in from web two and not want to do what three who actually have gotten burned out and want to quit.
35:49
Because they do not want to spend all this time, managing proposals, but they have to in order to get themselves funded or to work with certain Dallas right.
36:00
it's just it takes a lot of time and they really don't have that time because they like want to focus on building, so this is one of those things that makes it hard.

Matt Johnson
36:10
i'll tell you what also is happening is that.
36:13
You if you're not a builder or trying to forge your own project if you just want to be a contributor.
36:20
and get and have it be like a job, where you get paid or or get some bounty whatever it is that's so frustrating that I see a lot of people leaving dollars to go get jobs traditional jobs with projects that are funded because that's, the only way they can pay the bills.

Joshua Tan
36:42
The state of Dallas is still very much.
36:47
A maturation process.
36:52
i'll just mention that one of the things that.
36:56
We propose were talked about on the recent conference was the need for more basic in more basic more investment into like basic infrastructure, without not only standards.
37:09
Like scientific research and like infrastructural likes or fundamental technology to improve the way the dolls are run, including like you know.
37:18
You know, good social science rigorous social science on like this kind of proposal system like.
37:23
doesn't really work or just like is kind of inefficient relatives like these other options and the security trade off it's not worth it right.
37:30
So these are kinds of thing, or at least like sort of like you know, an engineering in terms like having a well defined trade off space would be like really, really useful.
37:39
And to help people with sort navigated like as as retrieves these things, why are they doing them and having that be explainable.
37:52
Exactly yeah definitely election methodologies and part of the thing is, it was just need to be able to pull in more the existing research on this from.
38:02
from political science and other parts of the sweet or sour exist other with a copy of course that you know things that work for let's say nation states or even like cities don't necessarily work for Dallas right.
38:17
So this is one of those things where we just need to do, new kinds of research that are specific to our context.
38:30
You know the questions.

raine scott
38:33
of a general question, what is the new form of government that you're most bullish on and Dallas like what's the cutting edge that you think might take off.

Joshua Tan
38:50
So as just having a conversation with them Connor who's from the cofounders of station you go to station dot express they just recently joined us that one, but the um.
39:01
You know about like let's say like there's like TAO geez right or like first wave of dolls and TAO frameworks and tooling like Aragon gnosis.
39:11
And the represented start one.
39:14
But there's also like this huge second wave of new startups.
39:20
Trying to build our tools, as well as their friends, I think people like.
39:25
Maybe send to get but.
39:28
Like station closer spruce.
39:33
super dal new folks building new tools and there's kind of like a difference between the two right.
39:41
This is certain kind of certain kinds of assumptions what Downs are and what they should look like in the wave one and and we've to that some of those assumptions are being challenged and I don't want to.
39:52
Say it's.
39:54
it's literally my job to be non biased in these in these situations right, but I would say that, like the field as a whole is, you know very empirical.
40:04
And there has been like, for example, a lot of people are emphasizing the importance of co op structures and how does you know our ideology look like a lot like co OPS.
40:14
But I also also also point out that empirically a lot of dollars actually like basically just corporations right they have stock.
40:22
You vote on them there's an executive team even like dying like there's literally a board of directors or delegates and then they like there's a executive team and it gets run down from from there.
40:35
And instead of saying this is somehow not adele.
40:38
Where data or whatever it is.
40:42
Just lean into this fact that Okay, you know a lot of dolls are going to look a lot like operations that's Okay, because it means you know or in some sense we should just like treat that as Okay, this is the thing that's happening, how can we take these dolls.
40:58
and support them and figure out how do we make them better than traditional corporations.
41:03
How do we disrupt you know these traditional legacy legally constituted corporations.
41:10
and make it so that Dallas are fundamentally even like in the corporate store like pattern are fundamentally better.
41:17
entity that you should be using if you're starting you know the next Google or the next Facebook right.
41:24
To me, that should be the questions were asking, as well as the questions around like, how do we, you know make co OPS work better, we should also be asking how do we make corporations work better, because I think those are a generic or general technology that can be applied in both cases.

Cent
41:40
I think, to ask a follow up to that maybe I can frame it slightly more neutral.
41:48
The the two examples that you just described that I mean to me they sound like governance models that are already.
41:55
extent like like we know them they exist and I guess i'm curious, I think, maybe this is kind of the question that rain is asking perhaps like.
42:05
In your observations, not necessarily sort of saying I like this, or whatever like what are some of the new forms of governance that you're seeing happen and wave one or wave to have doubts.
42:19
That might be different from what we know from nation states or even models like co OPS or corporations.

Joshua Tan
42:28
So.
42:31
I would honestly say that.
42:36
With where we're saying this.
42:39
People claim some things are new, but like as they just don't know the history of that's actually last 2000 years right which is fair enough, you know.
42:48
we're not historians, but there's been an incredible variation in the human organization before the Internet was everything and even like once the Internet was the thing.
42:58
Along with dolls are doing our is not necessarily new, but it is happening at a different scale right because of like essentially all the money that's going in.
43:07
That does change things in a often like a dramatic way.
43:12
But in terms of like organizational form that is like sick inefficiently new.
43:19
And not totally sure about it so it's just the closest thing would be something like um.
43:25
I don't know let's say like maker or Meta game and how they're using the source, like tools like source good to distribute automatically like compensation that's well to the new.
43:38
Where I think there's an argument there that you can make where you have.
43:45
let's say an algorithm dictating compensation.
43:50
And what it's doing it's it's consuming like data inputs from like a wide variety of different sources right.
43:57
Some of those experiments are being piloted and are pretty cool.
44:00
A lot of others are like you know he's just looking at.
44:04
I don't know like friends with benefits the social club essentially.
44:09
Which is obviously not new.
44:12
compound I mean.
44:16
You have delegates you're voting a mean it gets you could say it's some degree new, but is it really I would say not like substantially not like what I think it was like innovated pathbreaking governance right.

Cent
44:35
yeah I guess like one thing that I haven't really seen so far, but i'm curious to know if it's out there is taking advantage of the kind of.
44:46
programmatic programmatic capabilities to kind of introduce in determinant see or sort of sort of like a form of sort titian but maybe slightly more chaotic.
44:59
into the governance process to kind of nudge people in two different directions, they might not have ordinarily expected.
45:05
And sort of take advantage of the fact that that can be programmed i'm wondering if there's anything like that, or if or if we're also just seeing like you know.
45:15
Government like new things coming under governance, even if it's like like maybe that's like another angle to explore here what it's like new things that are coming under governance, even if they're using kind of historical models, this is like a two pronged consideration.

Unknown Speaker
45:32
For.

Matt Johnson
45:39
So josh I was just going to for that having participated in a whole bunch of dazzle the last nine months.
45:49
i'm not seeing much variation back when go back to raise question of what's the latest governance model you like.
45:57
i'm actually not seeing these new models that you guys should point and say oh that's a new way of doing it because we break it down.
46:04
there's tactics or approaches that are happening that are being that are evolved into.
46:10
deal with challenges they're facing so one of the things that's emerged recently that's getting traction is this concept of seasons.
46:18
As to sort of saying let's time frame our time bucket you know and then let's set some goals that will do work streams that happen within that and we recycle do it again.
46:32
that's one concept there's a lot of josh was mentioned the new compensation models that are coming up.
46:39
Delegates a sort of a new it's been happening, but now people started to talk about it, starting to spread.
46:45
around the concept of having delegates So you see all these different pockets of different techniques that are happening in dazzle I just look at it like almost all dow's.
46:54
are doing the same thing you can I don't see much variation and they all variations and how they manage the proposal process when it gets to a vote.
47:04
But it's minor rejiggering of the process, like we monetize as well, it starts in discourse or it starts in discord and then it gets you know.
47:13
You do a temperature check and then you do an off chain vote and then it goes on and on chain vote.
47:20
But at the same but, at the end of the day, it's still just the collective or the Community voting on the proposal and the process of mine really different and honestly, so I look at this like.
47:31
There is no emergent new governance model it's just a whole bunch of tactical things that are happening under that umbrella of voting compensation.
47:42
You know that kind of things is happening yeah.

Joshua Tan
47:45
And a lot of that stuff is you know it's not new it's just you know companies have been doing these tactical things.
47:51
Exactly it's all the time right.

Matt Johnson
47:52
I have, I have yet to see anything that's like.
47:55
wow that's radical and what's not happening, yet which I think what most people.
48:02
I don't know if it's the assumptions there for people that are not not in there, but for this concept of actually having everything.
48:08
embedded in smart contracts, so people just engage and it's all happening like automatically getting compensated, you know, putting things something and, like the system sort of takes over.
48:20
And this machine just sort of taylor's the whole coordination of human activity to accomplish whatever the data is trying to accomplish.
48:28
And everything's managed through smart contracts.
48:31
You know very binary sort of decision making points along the process we're not anywhere close to that happening i've never seen it in any TAO.
48:39
Even at a rudimentary level for smart car even like a compensation things josh was alluding to it just now starting to get a little bit of automation on compensation, but i'm not seeing it anywhere else yeah.

Cent
48:52
On that point, I wonder what if anyone starting to see like.
48:57
Where like nlp natural language, processing and machine learning kind of applied to the proposal process like kind of building off of like.
49:06
The you have like these servers where a lot of people were commenting and kind of building up temperature checks like is there any kind of work that's been done to kind of.
49:15
auto generate proposals, maybe based around some sort of standard or template that tries to like pool and the kind of sentiment, I guess, of a community.

Joshua Tan
49:29
Now we'll just say that i'm.
49:33
That APP that those sorts of applications and machine learning.
49:36
And, well, I mean there's hungry that's probably the best place clearest places is happening it's you know, please like Facebook right or Google.
49:48
Using nlp to sort of pull together certain kinds of outputs and we wouldn't call them proposals.
49:55
But in civic tech, for example, this is also like a really big problem where you have like open comment periods by a public on a proposal or you know you know, maybe like a big co budgeting around right and.
50:09
The.
50:11
it's really hard to parse these thousands of comments and really expensive to do it by hand, so people are trying to use an Ob and it's just a big open problem because it's really, really hard.
50:22
And I don't think existing an op including like you know fancy dancy things like tbd three are really had the capacity to interpret those things and then like.
50:31
put out but we imagine are structured useful proposals that's just a really hard problem that I think require.
50:40
possibly even like just like us to wait until your Ai makes another like really big breakthrough before we can get to it like it's not something that I think it's going to be.
50:50
You can do through incrementally a lot of cases, because the contexts are really quite specific it's not like a generalized data sets that you can sort of just feed to a deep learning algorithm the young.
51:02
yeah I would say, maybe to pull back a bit.
51:08
What if you think about what is the truly lately correlate the innovative governance model.
51:14
And the past, you know few decades, or that was made possible by the Internet, and I will usually point i'd like two different things right one, which are both related first is just open source.
51:27
Open Source is a new governance model or like productions for like yeah essentially like people are producing clearly economically valuable things under a completely different gene that you know anybody had really seen before.
51:42
I open source and they were doing this.
51:46
By leveraging or using the.
51:51
licenses that have been innovated back in the 80s early 90s, I guess, but also the infrastructure, these things like source forge or github as well as protocols like get.
52:04
So this was a whole kind of like stack that built what we think of is that open source today and open source data is still like trying to figure itself out and facing problems but it's also incredibly productive right.
52:16
I would also point out like peer production.
52:19
Or you know, like what we typically think of as like Wikipedia and these kinds of like wiki style projects Wikipedia is like perhaps one of the most valuable resources on the planet, at this point, but it's built entirely for free.
52:34
In a shared governance model, I mean the governance of Wikipedia is.
52:38
I wouldn't say like super innovative in some sense, but I think they technical infrastructure and the application was very innovative like for its time.
52:48
You know it's run by nonprofit, but it has an editorial system and a lot of online communities that have this and have had this, but this particular application how stitch together that's a clear, I think a really sort of innovative sort of thing that happened that.
53:03
I said that is new and have not been seen before in terms of like that scale of possibility I don't think we're there yet.
53:11
I think they could get there and they might get there, like sooner rather than later, even I don't think we're at, we can say like Dallas have achieved anything close to what Open Source has achieved as a governance model.
53:24
or a governance technology.

Matt Johnson
53:26
yeah those are great points it's interesting because I when I look back at that it's this open source model is amazing right, but I also you got to recognize that.
53:36
It generated lots of economic wealth, but the most of the builders had other full time jobs that they're getting paid they did this on the side.

Unknown Speaker
53:45
To build a delta.

Matt Johnson
53:48
And what's interesting is that the blockchain actually can create the economic model or incentives to like feed that value back to the builders.
54:00
It conceptually it's like theoretical nolan's I don't see it yet, but that would be really amazing to have all of a sudden, you know you can put in some nights and weekends, to build a little niche tooling to help you do your job better and all sudden get rewarded for it later on.
54:20
Because, then that becomes the same model, you can apply to dazzle General which is collectively coming together.
54:27
accomplishing something that the Community wants to accomplish if it has some economic value, monetary, economic value, it can come back to a Community or a just improve your environment and you're all better for.

Joshua Tan
54:43
Absolutely.
54:46
I think we're coming up to the end of the call.
54:51
Are there any last questions, otherwise we might ended here.

Quadri Oguntade
54:56
just wanted to confirm, so you mentioned about the embedded doubt that was doing the automated are using Ai for the competition was the naming.

Joshua Tan
55:06
So.
55:07
There was a question I don't think there's a doubt it's using yeah.

Quadri Oguntade
55:11
Okay, no, no yeah, but I think you mentioned, maybe an ecosystem was using like a kind of a automated.

Joshua Tan
55:17
way oh civic tech to civic tech um so you can look at like a was it called again the city.
55:26
So this is very practical question where a lot of people, giving comments England interpret those comments in some way and try to sort of understand parse parse those comments in order to get like a refined seven suggestions or recommendations or proposals essentially.

Quadri Oguntade
55:41
I think.

Matt Johnson
55:43
yeah.
55:44
Most of that machine learning, for that is really just doing.
55:48
sentiment analysis as opposed to taking their comments and turning that into a refinement on what it is it's being proposed that that's pretty cool stuff I haven't seen much of that, but certainly sentiment analysis and here's our proposal, how does the Community feel about it.
56:07
that's certainly possible now we've done, although I don't see it happening any thousand i've been part of.

Joshua Tan
56:17
I would say that's downs, maybe the thing most important about thousands of framer is that that they themselves are going to be like super innovative model.
56:28
But they.
56:30
are a fertile playground for innovating new things.
56:37
And the question is we'll see we'll have to see what kind of innovations do occur, including things like machine learning.
56:43
For applications are of.
56:45
Okay, with that, I think that is included this.
56:49
iteration of the dial star Community call.
56:52
Thanks to everyone for participating and it's really good to see both some new and returning faces and these happened on a bi weekly basis, so if you are listening to the recording please join us live two weeks from now will we continue these conversations having lots of fun.
57:12
Oh right one week from now.

Cent
57:14
On Thursday.

Joshua Tan
57:14
Because we move this yeah.