1. Introductions

2. EIP Review

3. Ido: update on schemas + schema extension tool

4. Keating / Isaac: update on reference implementations

• Kaitlin:
... Filecoin community dev ...

• A S
... at Byte Masons ...
... working on legal projects ...

• Kelvin
... ethereum developer ...
... wants to contribute ...

• Alexander
... water and music ...
... working on standardizing nft metadata ...

• Orion
... block sience ...
... working on technical systems

• Ido
... need to host schemas on DAO* site ...
... will want a way to easily validate that DAOs are adhering to the schema ...
Josh
... yes, we want this, to check for compliance from a scientific perspective ...
... if we want to implement a clearing house functionality, this would be important ...
... if DAOs publish certain properties about themselves, we want to be able to connect DAOs and publishers ...
Zargahm
... the standard we wrote is an ontology that was generalized for ethereum since it was going to be submitted as an EIP ...
... reference implementations will be critical for understanding how the standard is being developed ...
... off-chain / non-chain ...
... off-chain implies a funnel into on-chain / non-chain (like github) do not funnel to on-chain ...
Josh
... DAO* standards are designed to capture on-chain data ...
... DAO* standard schema is robust enough to build a reference implementation for non-chain organization ...
... there are many implementations for the standard ...
... the first implementations will be with Moloch and Compound
... this would be a good place for developers to contribute ...
Zargahm
... even in non-chain organizations, that same principles of distributed decision making are at play in setting new policies or making organizational changes ...
Ido
... update on working with treeldr ...
... this is being used to generate the JSON-LD “context file” ...
Josh: i.e. a formal schema describing the meaning of the properties.
... these are pre-alpha libraries; bugs are to be expected ...

Joshua Tan
08:20
Here are the lives notes from today: https://daostar.notion.site/Strike-Team-16-Community-Call-2-4156e82cc3bc4038b12bcad49c4729ab
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Joshua Tan
08:33
The EIP is at https://daostar.one/EIP
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Joshua Tan
26:49
This is the repo: https://github.com/spruceid/treeldr
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Joshua Tan
27:26
We are using this to generate the JSON-LD “context file”, i.e. a formal schema describing the meaning of the properties.
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sam
27:46
Lol funny name
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Ido Gershtein
30:19
https://github.com/spruceid/treeldr
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sam
40:08
Not sure but I think LexDAO is doing so
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Cent
48:19
Here is the PT ABI proposal interface I mentioned: https://vote.pooltogether.com/proposals/create
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Cent
48:47
and yes, that second use case of self-submission is what i'm interested in
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z
51:54
@matt If you are looking at coordination primitives its also a good idea to research contract patterns. The UX on this is a bit low but the data in the form of reverse engineered contract standards is super valuable: http://www.commonaccord.org/
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A S | Byte Masons
52:16
I need to step away for a minute, brb
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Alexander Flores
52:57
(just lurking for the first few meetings, listening to this in the background)
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Matt Johnson
58:10
https://bit.ly/3If95iw
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Matt Johnson
58:21
This is the link to the white paper
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Alexander Flores
58:31
I would be interested, not sure how much we can contribute off the bat
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kaitlin donovan
58:33
Thanks for sharing Matt!
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Alexander Flores
58:51
^in regards to onboarding working group
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sam
59:00
DID exists
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Matt Johnson
59:04
Need to leave
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z
59:05
^
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kaitlin donovan
59:08
Definitely, interested in the WG.
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John Szczepaniak
59:26
Also have to run - thanks everyone!
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kaitlin donovan
01:00:54
Need to hop off. Thanks all!
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sam
01:00:59
https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/
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Rolf Hoefer
01:01:31
gotta run to next call 💜
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0xTFT
01:02:02
Thanks sam
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sam
01:02:38
+100
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sam
01:02:54
I’m only scared that we forget about privacy 😇
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Orion Reed
01:03:51
Gotta hop on the next call, thanks everyone! Looking forward to engaging more as I get up to speed.

Joshua Tan
00:02
Alright, everyone Oh, and just a note about the recording, so this is going to just be internal it's not gonna be posted publicly.
00:10
Young all right, welcome to the second Community call the death star standard welcome all.
00:18
Any folks who are new and I see if you have you here so maybe just get started, want to give folks so let me just set the context and set the agenda so we'll do a round of introductions and then have we'll have this is like part of our kind of standard meeting, where the.
00:37
I said the downstairs strike team slash working group working on the standard will be presenting and talking about a few subjects, including.
00:47
Number one the schema and number two the reference of invitations.
00:50
So the two things that are most active.
00:53
And then we'll sort of just have an open opportunity to sort of ask questions and to get on board with you know if you are thinking about doing you know upgrading go down to follow the standard or just have comments or feedback on the given standard to be awesome to to discuss yeah.
01:12
So in that case let's just run straight into the introductions.
01:17
i'll get started i'm josh i'm the ED of medical of nonprofit research group that's working in the space and helping kind of.
01:25
administer this standards body and i'm a computer scientist mathematician by training so let's pop it to new folks so who wants to go first.
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Matt Johnson
01:37
I guys matt Johnson, I am the founder of a Dow coordination tooling project and very interested in death star specifically around the concept of capturing standardization around behaviors because obviously thats related to coordination so that's why i'm here.
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Joshua Tan
02:02
Welcome
02:04
Once go next.
02:07
I will call on people so.
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0xTFT
02:10
I guess I can go next.
02:14
My name is T amp T yesterday I had a meeting with Yvonne enough.
02:19
From Oregon and he's he brought up TAO star one and what you guys are doing in trying to build a standard for Dallas and I took a look at your working paper and I thought this very interesting.
02:34
A set bite mason's they'll have been working on building out tooling for Dallas for a number of months and we'd love to get involved in and see how we can contribute.
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Joshua Tan
02:46
awesome welcome Thank you.
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John Szczepaniak
02:50
I can go, my name is john I work with gnosis and.
02:55
actually read joshua's wonderful post on on the gnosis forum.
03:00
I help gnosis with their Community building efforts and.
03:05
Also, just finished the research initiative with TC on data reward systems and yeah generally just curious to learn more about.
03:17
Your.
03:18
Your efforts here and.
03:21
Just you know, trying to keep my finger on the pulse and and yeah happy to be here.
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Joshua Tan
03:28
awesome welcome john.
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John Szczepaniak
03:30
Also, just real quick, I want to say a Z i'm sorry I don't know your full name but would love to connect over the project that you were just talking about and generally happy to promote it on on the gnosis side.
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z
03:44
awesome you can pick me out of band because it's also related to TC that's who's going to be giving Trent and I are are backing that the donation to kick off this relationship.
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John Szczepaniak
03:55
Oh very cool yeah I would love to learn more i'll DM you.
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kaitlin donovan
04:02
Keeping with the theme of donations and awards, I suppose I can introduce myself next.
04:08
My name is caitlin donovan and I am with file Quint foundation and file Quinn foundation for the decentralized web I work there as a social impact program manager and i'm just looking as well for ways to connect with the Kenyan community and figure out if there.
04:24
Are any synergies with our lines of effort to help fund folks.
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Joshua Tan
04:32
Beautiful.
04:33
Good are you again.
04:37
We do have a few a couple of additional new folks yes yeah.
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A S | Byte Masons
04:42
I can go next hey guys i'm as i'm also a bite mason were a developer collective on phantom.
04:49
Like tfp said we've been building out some some TAO tools and working with lex down on a few legal projects but yeah just have to be here interested to hear what you guys have to say, and you know connect more.
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Joshua Tan
05:04
isn't.
05:06
Welcome
05:10
Are there any but anybody Hello.
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Unknown Speaker
05:12
Hello.
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Joshua Tan
05:14
Go ahead.
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klinder
05:14
yeah my name is Calvin i'm working on a project on the view them as a developer, and I just saw the standard in the in the imagination net and just want to check out a bit and see if anything I can contribute to.
05:30
yep.
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Joshua Tan
05:32
Oh there's so much you could contribute to him so much work to be done.
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Unknown Speaker
05:36
yeah.
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Joshua Tan
05:38
He will be very worried.
05:40
The.
05:43
anybody else wants to introduce themselves.
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Orion Reed
05:46
I guess.
05:51
I.
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Unknown Speaker
05:56
Was that way.
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Joshua Tan
05:58
Alex once you go first and then orion.
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Alexander Flores
06:00
Alright sounds good Alex from water music we're like a research publication down.
06:06
And just interested in metadata in general I think the standard it's really interesting we have another project in the music space trying to standardize music, in a few minutes data.
06:17
And then, in the DCI space and others and effort to standardize a lot of academic data so just kind of getting a feel for what's going on right now.
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Joshua Tan
06:26
awesome welcome.
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Orion Reed
06:30
I missed that I missed the first few minutes so just like approximate world questions i'm going to be answering here but i'm currently working at block science.
06:39
doing some knowledge management work and then the kind of research focus is on kind of knowledge representation in distributed systems and associated technical systems.
06:51
So yeah happy to be here, I don't know much about this this group, yet, but i'm looking forward to getting caught up.
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Joshua Tan
07:00
awesome welcome around.
07:04
Like is, I think we are all good and killing and Denise you've you've been here before.
07:11
So let's just jump straight into it so.
07:17
Maybe it'll be good just i'll just run through the VIP really super quickly for those few who are not familiar with it obviously can see it at all sort of one size fit all just for my screen and.
07:29
super quickly.
07:37
Hopefully folks and see this.
07:40
So once again this this can be found at nascar dot one flashy IP so you can just track it directly but what's going on the IP For those of you don't know something very, very basic it's all we're doing is standardizing essentially the schemas as political json sort of schemas of.
07:59
let's say the metadata of the Dow or you know it's organized to say this is kind of like reporting standards, so it implements dahlia arrived very similar to token you are afraid of these verbs of you are familiar with this.
08:12
gives you the to be maybe the prelude this everything is going to build in json ld or json link dina if you're not familiar with this it's a.
08:23
More eXtensible version of giant json that is a little bit harder to use in the beginning, because it's not just like here's some properties, you tell you will.
08:32
But it allows for much easier extension, which is our point of the standard were kind of expecting.
08:38
That here's some very, very basic information that we put into the standard into the schemas and then we can extend it for different applications different use cases.
08:45
That different towns might be interested in or different applications, they want to support.
08:49
we'll talk a little bit more about how exactly we're doing that, with the schema infrastructure that we're that we're building right now and then ITO will maybe get a chance to talk about and share.
08:59
So.
09:01
Value I bring breaks down, so it has named description as a context, and this is pointing to this is part of the json ld sort of.
09:10
Infrastructure where.
09:11
That sort of helps you to find out what exactly precisely what all these things mean.
09:16
And then it splits into a couple for different URL is one going to Members down here, which is just as you can expect a list of the.
09:25
Members of the doubt they can define it, how they want, in this case it's just assuming if you address, but that can vary depending on the day itself.
09:32
proposals are you what proposals they're sending and it'd be important to note here is that we're trying to serve associate every on train proposal to us more or less like global unique ID so we're using a Cape 10 address for chain agnostic and proven roles or 10.
09:51
plus a proposal ID that is unique part of the doubt.
09:56
And then there is an activity log which essentially all it is it's just a junction between the.
10:04
between Members and.
10:07
Proposals so modeling things like votes submissions executions stuff like that.
10:15
Once again, all this is extremely straightforward.
10:18
And, roughly speaking the rationale is that you know, fundamentally, we believe men Dallas have really two fundamental constructs.
10:27
They have some notion of behavior which is just inherited directly from smart from the smart contract right smart contracts that behavior or go down south to be eager.
10:36
And they also have a membership that's the important new thing about adele is that there are some notion of Members.
10:43
And finally there's a sort of connection between these two, which is the idea of proposals I remembers have some ability to effect or influence the behavior of the contract itself.
10:55
i'll let you read the sort of the longer rationale why we, you know things about why we chose to use now the process by which we came to this to get.
11:04
But hopefully That gives you were super quick summary For those of you who are new to the IP and just you know, maybe answer some questions up front.
11:13
So going forward let's um.
11:19
You know, do you want to share a little bit about the the progress on the schema and kind of necessary like the next steps there.
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Ido Gershtein
11:27
yeah everyone.
11:31
So right before the call I talked with Michael from spruce it and.
11:39
OK so maybe First, we need to, we need to to host the schemas in our star sect right.
11:50
And and.
11:52
Other than that.
11:55
Probably it's a question, probably, we would also want a way to easily.
12:03
easily validate that schemas that those are using are adhering to the standard right because the basic idea and that.
12:16
Just that just says suggests suggested is that we will have a very basic schema or what you so now, the problem, the proposals the Members and all of that.
12:26
But then you will have a lot of extensions of all the various downs, and you will get a jungle of extended extended properties and.
12:37
We would like to look at the jungle of schemas that the that the Dallas generates and and then make sense, out of them see what are the common properties that are being used.
12:52
I don't know come on let's say the statuses of proposals things like that, but still we want, I think we want to be able to at least validate all those schemas are being.
13:06
Still.
13:08
still respecting the basic the basic.
13:12
The basic standards of the IP.
13:16
So that's that right, that is it true that we want a way to easily validate all the.
13:24
All the various schemas that will will we will be able to fetch from the doubts.
13:31
Because we can decide that we don't want to actually you know, have a tool that validates them.
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Joshua Tan
13:39
No, I think we do I mean at the very least, like we want to be able to check compliance, if only for like you know, like scientific purpose will research purposes understanding like how what the usage of the standard is.
13:55
sort of like how it's being complied with, we want to, we want to be able to do that right, and if you ever want to actually allow some sort of like.
14:06
To enable like that idea of like clearing house that kind of clearing house functionality background here for folks who don't know the idea is that you know, we want to be able to.
14:17
So if our publishers publish extend the schema in a certain way as in like they publish certain properties or if Downs publish certain properties.
14:26
Like published data about themselves, we want to be able to sort of connect.
14:31
thousand and publishers thousand developers, so that you know we can have more organic and easier sort of.
14:39
easier or more organic extensions of the of the of the standard, I can say, like right now.
14:48
Beyond and I would actually love to get back to the to the tree Oh, Dr.
14:53
discussion and just think a little bit more about like what exactly is going to be involved if we do end up using that library to publish the schemas.
15:05
But yeah right now, like what's going on.
15:08
Is we have like in order to extend the standards, standards they're.
15:14
Based on our feedback that people are giving to us like it seems like we're not going to be changing the standard that much.
15:23
That might like we're going to there'll be like a multitasking standard I could submit it separately.
15:28
That might include a few different like schema elements but it's going to be largely just an extension of this existing one like a conservative extensions that could change anything that already exists.
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z
15:36
This this standard that we wrote ended up being a special case of at least you know what some of us had in mind as the more general version, but like pre contextualize to the ethereum world.
15:48
Because there was going to be submitted into this Ai P process, but the ontology that it sort of evokes is one where.
15:57
The Organization and the Members and the sort of organizational level behavior emerges from the Member level behavior and it's possible to you know, use the same standard at least.
16:08
Broadly speaking, on different block chains, but also in a non blockchain setting in the US in a mixed setting where some processes or.
16:18
interactions happen in on chain way and others happening off chain way, all of which is prevalent in the data space so.
16:25
I think, at least from my perspective, getting these reference implementations is going to be critical for both getting the standard adopted, but also for really understanding what it does well in the off chance that we do find ourselves, adapting it in a in the short term.
16:42
yeah I don't know josh did you want to add anything about the the non the non chain elements that we discussed or do you think we should just hold that for.
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Joshua Tan
16:53
You mean would it be non to maybe offering elements.
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z
16:56
He will there's a difference between off chain for something that has on Jane elements and or non chain, in the sense of like.
17:03
The difference between, say, following the standard using github or radical versus say having a mixed solution where you were using something like a snapshot against on chain infrastructure, both of which are valid sort of you know, essentially structures.
17:21
But.
17:22
I know our reference implementations are starting with an emphasis on on chain components.
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Unknown Speaker
17:28
yeah.
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Joshua Tan
17:30
So.
17:33
The so yeah we thought it was referring to, especially with the get up in the nation is right now, like obviously like.
17:42
Down store one is is the data sources are intended to capture on chain like Dallas which are like normally on chain right.
17:50
But the schemas schemas themselves and the kind of setup is generic enough where you can like build entirely off chain Dallas and let's face it, a lot of dollars are actually pretty much all off chain there's like here's a Twitter account a bunch of people.
18:05
which you know, is a little bit controversial in certain circles to even call them Dallas but either way.
18:13
The point is the schema is actually robust enough that you can actually build an entire implementation we're actually working with github right now to build.
18:22
Reference meditation just using the github stack like get up organizations and get up proposals as essentially as proposals in this sense or pull request I think it's proposals.
18:34
Anyway, it just sort of saying like actually this implementation and this infrastructure can be used for lots of different use cases.
18:42
But it's obviously intended to support these on change use cases and the ones we're starting with our like model can compound but we're hoping to build additional ones.
18:50
And this is something where if you're interested contributing, we would especially love to get help on building these initial reference it.
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z
18:56
As far as though you know get flow based representation of the standard goes, I think there are already pretty clear cut examples, for my part i've had some.
19:07
Steps in and discussions with people working on the file coin improvement process, for example, the fit process and in practice what you see is you know some.
19:16
Issues effectively reflecting you know proposals and you see you know deliberative process, and then you see you know not particularly.
19:25
Clear away from which something goes from you know proposed to accepted but that's something that's being worked on like making it more transparent.
19:33
And so, in so far as these are off chain at least the proposing and accepting and you know, etc they're not actually out of the scope of these decentralized organizations.
19:45
In so far as they need to make proposals that will eventually manifest as either policy making decisions or as code changes or both.
19:55
We already see get as a as a technical tool for facilitating aggregating individual level behavior into organization level behavior, which is precisely what the standard manages.
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Joshua Tan
20:12
agree.
20:14
um so let me move things back to the because the two things I really want to cover before we just get into the general questions from the Community are.
20:25
So.
20:27
tree ld are actually you know, do you have the link to that, and you want to share.
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Ido Gershtein
20:33
yeah just seconds.
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Joshua Tan
20:37
So you you ended up Michael actually go through, and like generate the code for you, for the schema so again.
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Ido Gershtein
20:46
We had we had like 20 minutes.
20:49
Before the call and and he showed me like a DEMO not with our schemas but just a DEMO showed me a little bit like, how do you play with it.
20:58
And what we, and I wanted to continue with what I said before that, basically, as I understand the benefit that we will get from working with three of the areas that.
21:10
You how it looks to you right if you're they have like a syntax to define, you know, like that all your objects and and there are properties and.
21:23
dependencies of the between them and then it generates you the json ld objects, and this in this ended json schema that validates those json ld that's like the the special thing that they are able to generate.
21:42
Because today when you write a json ld.
21:47
objects you don't have you don't have an obvious way to validate to validate them to validate objects that they adhere to the the json or the schemas.
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Unknown Speaker
21:58
yeah.
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Ido Gershtein
22:00
So so Okay, this is what will get if we want if we will, if we will.
22:06
Use three of the are what but my question is like.
22:13
Our json ld schemas are pretty simple maybe like it will be easier to just create the json ld schema schemas ourself that that just validate those json ld.
22:28
objects because Mike as Michael said it's like even pre alpha and the library so.
22:36
We can expect problems, maybe it will work, finally, but what we discussed is that I will try to play with the library and generate it for our json objects.
22:48
Michael will be there for me if I encounter problems and have questions.
22:54
And yeah we'll see him if if it succeeds, we will have like the, we will have the json schema that can validate that we can use to validate with.
23:04
And then we just need to to host it to host everything on our site and once you have the json and the json schema you have a lot of tools that you can use to to to to validate the the the json ld objects.
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Joshua Tan
23:22
Okay that's amazing.
23:26
So it sounds like okay so let's just use this for the like the minimal thing and then we can decide whether we want to use the other features given it it's free offer.
23:33
Like i'm kind of sympathetic to the idea that there are lots of things that we don't know that we need, yet you know what I mean.
23:42
Like we don't know exactly what's going to happen when we start needing to validate this at scale, or whether we even need to do a validation implicit I think we probably want to be able to do that.
23:53
In which case, maybe they're solving problems that we're going to encounter eventually.
23:58
Young okay I don't want to spend too much time on this because it's a slightly technical subject, but if anybody who is familiar with json ld.
24:07
or just generally wants to get involved feel free to Ping myself, where you know after the call and we'll be happy to kind of get you up to date on this.
24:20
Unless there are any questions or we move on to the next agenda item.
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Unknown Speaker
24:25
Okay.
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Joshua Tan
24:26
So the next agenda item is just to discuss the reference of limitations, this is.
24:33
Right now, of course I don't think.
24:36
Either either competing can make it to this particular call.
24:41
Is kidding here I don't see him okay well either way we're hoping to get some initial Oh, maybe it's sort of while we're talking about this, so we just got some additional funding yeah from Aragon, and hopefully we're going to see the.
24:58
This.
25:00
Additional grants coming in from radical from gnosis and for medicare tall.
25:06
But I guess we'll just wait to see how the crop grant process roles for these dolls and then we'll be able to sort like pay the people we're actually building the presentations these initial ones.
25:19
Right now, those are maalik as politically more likely three and compound compound gunner bravo.
25:28
So if there are requests hear from folks for other reference implementations that you would really like to see.
25:35
Please let us know and looked at sort of work with you to build those things.
25:40
Unless there are any other comments on the representations let's just open up for general questions.
25:47
That folks have any sort of like particular comments and things that we're particularly interested in or things they wanted to.
25:53
discuss this is intended to be partly we get some work done for the internal server team, but also just a an open for conversation that people can join in sort of offer comments that you saw you raise your hand yep.
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Matt Johnson
26:08
yeah so I like to step back and sort of the 50,000 foot level.
26:13
Is the standardization for.
26:17
Ultimately, the the output is that it gives you the ability to report and analyze on things because it's standardized or as a goal more sort of.
26:26
compose ability level whether they're interchangeable to some extent, whatever we get into because that's what i'm trying to get a figure for is what's the end goal here is.
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z
26:37
You know, those are closely related, I mean it's more like standardizing the communication level of the API is because if you can't.
26:46
If you can't read something you really shouldn't be writing to it.
26:50
If you know what I mean So if you imagine a world where $2 want to coordinate or otherwise inter operate at the contract level.
26:58
that the decision making apparatus, whether it's software or humans needs to be able to read read and interpret the state of the other system.
27:06
In order to meaningfully decide on and make a call to set system, and so one of the sort of at least this is maybe my bias coming in, as a control systems engineer, is that, like it's it's not possible to meaningfully.
27:20
engage on the action side of an interface, if you can't first.
27:23
engage on the Read side of an interface, and so we're arguably prioritizing the Read side of the interface but i'm not because it's not important to be able to interoperate but because it's a prerequisite for me influence your operation upper upper like okay you got what.
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Matt Johnson
27:40
I know what the word is, but thanks as you see, you answered my question it definitely gets into the composer ability, so, then the next part to that to my inquiries that.
27:51
I know that you guys try to keep things really simple at a very high level, because you don't want to get into anything that was going to be contested, which is a smart way to go about this.
28:00
But to take that to the next level to you, is it because we want to take baby steps.
28:05
and eventually you do want to have a fairly detailed schema that that goes a lot more deep than we are going now, but we want to get everyone on board as you go down that path.
28:16
Or is a concept that we got to keep it really high level and simple, because we know this is a mess and everyone's going to doing their own thing so.
user avatar
z
28:24
The answer is both so the reason for the json ld approach is that, rather than have the he has a thin level that is sort of.
28:32
let's say ground truth and is consistent, but as you go down into the weeds you're going to get and need more diversity and so with the eXtensible schemas what you're basically doing is saying that.
28:44
The degree to which things are standardized is going to emerge, so if people really want to be, and are very similar they're going to adopt very similar deeper.
28:54
patterns, but insofar as you go deeper, you need more diversity, you also have entities that are going to express themselves differently and the.
29:02
Keeping the json ld pattern means that as things diverged you can still enter operate, because you can basically make machine readable what they have chosen to do.
29:13
And, in so far as you're willing to build software that sort of impedance matches between those different schemas you can still enter operate so you're like you're.
29:22
I guess for better for lack of a better term.
29:25
we're trying to get a have our cake and eat it too, but obviously there's some costs of that.
29:30
And it is that the json ld pattern isn't itself, the solution it's people continuing to extend the schemas and to make choices about how to organize and express their organization.
29:41
And then deciding whether to use the same patterns, as some other towns or whether they feel it's necessary to use different patterns and so we'll end up with.
29:50
Diversity, but not like everyone's different or everyone's the same, but you could almost imagine a sort of.
29:56
graph network of two dads are close to each other if, and only if they're very similar in their schemas and they're far away from each other if, and only if they're very different in their.
30:08
In the way they've chosen to organize and express the organization via the schemas they implement.
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Matt Johnson
30:15
Great so that that's really helpful because i'm what i'm trying to tackle is behavior space, more specifically, around voting and Member activity so i'm already in the weeds right so partly is i'm trying to figure out, you know.
30:31
Do it when Do I need to exert myself, and will you ever get there and it sounds like you this and.
30:36
To one comment that you made right, the whole thing of like hey it's the Wild West and we're okay with that or we want to have a you know standardization across the board, I think the elegance is.
30:48
The elegance we want to get to the elegant solution which is highly flexible and it can cover a lot of approaches.
30:55
But it's still a standard so that someone can always find the way they need to do what they need to do in our schema because it's elegantly flexible.
31:05
And and covers pretty much all the use cases that are going to be out there and it's still a standard, and I think it's worth fighting for it because that's going to be a lot harder to do.
31:15
And it will take time to emerge what are all all those use cases are.
user avatar
z
31:21
As someone who's interested in in focused in the weeds, the best thing I think you could possibly do is to like leverage this flexible schemas to.
31:28
detail to provide a detailed expression of the the behavior you are interested in and then that creates a sort of shelling point where it's more likely that other organizations will.
31:40
Like represent themselves or organize themselves in ways more similar to what you've done if you're on the leading edge of the application of this technique.
31:49
There will still be differences, but you know the way you get the depth is by some, you know we've kind of went Brett Brett first, but like there's a room for someone to be the debt first or ideally multiple parties to start diving into the depth.
32:03
Within the usage of this this extensive ability at first approach.
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Matt Johnson
32:08
yeah that's helpful because I definitely have done a lot of thinking about that that schema level of how to standardized what is arguably an incredibly.
32:18
messy environment of people interacting and proposing and approving and then completing and doing and paying and all those elements that have to happen.
32:29
in different ways, so i'll i'll figure out how I should contribute, you know, throwing out a straw man or or my my place scheme is that can basic people can look at and say hey that actually is interesting it sort of fits in, and I could start to lay some of the Foundation that's great.
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Joshua Tan
32:47
It makes sense.
32:49
yeah i'll say that, right now, I mean part of what you and I were talking about earlier with respect to these like schema tools is facilitating some level of like.
32:59
The ability to publish these kinds of like schema extensions directly through the like, but essentially the Dow the Dow star schemas sort of like.
33:10
Infrastructure tool, so you can say like these are my schemas this is exactly I mean it extends the existing VIP 4824 schema and precisely this way right.
33:20
And that'll just make it more visible and just clear and then also the schemas the context falls will be directly posted so just very easy to consume.
33:31
yeah let's for now just if you're interested in publishing and it's schema extension just let us know we'll be happy to somehow like put on there.
33:42
um any other questions folks people.
33:46
Things what people want to discuss or just a general use case you know they wanted to propose out there.
33:57
I know there are questions.
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John Szczepaniak
33:59
I have just a really basic question.
34:02
Is there are there any examples, right now, of dow's who are using a pull request as proposals, and I mean i'm curious as like a non technical person who has.
34:16
done a pull request and very confused.
34:20
So yeah i'm i'm curious about like the user experience of.
34:27
of using pull requests as proposals or you know just as a contributor like what that would look like for people who are non technical but yeah if there's any examples i'd love to see it out in the wild.
user avatar
z
34:42
I would say what I was talking about was description or interpretation but, although it is, it is actively quite common for people to.
34:53
Literally use the get get workflow to aggregate individual behavior into group level behavior that is actually how open source projects work there's two sets of rules.
35:03
Procedures through which people gain the right to say make you know make they make branches, they make commits to branches, to make pull request to main branch.
35:13
Then conditioned on a pull request to the main branch there might be some required reviews from either specific people or whatnot and there's a process through which.
35:23
You know the the community often publishes their their contributor guidelines which actually describe.
35:29
The what you can think of as the proposal making process and the process through which those things are ratified and ultimately merged and the reason that I brought it up is because.
35:38
This is one of the areas that a lot of people in the Web three space in the end, slightly the bubble around it, are familiar with, and that can help them understand.
35:48
The extent to which the pattern of individual behavior aggregates into group level behaviour exists, beyond the scope of a smart contract it's actually a quite general pattern i'm.
35:59
also been involved with some nonprofits and again, you see it's quite common to have individual volunteer contributor behavior net up to.
36:10
organization level behavior, so I hope that's helpful i'm trying to emphasize that because i'd love for the standard to.
36:17
lift off away from just smart contracts to just understanding what it means for an organization to.
36:25
To emerge from the the contributions of its members and make sure that we can support entities that choose a mix of materials, whether those those are you know code on smart content.
36:36
Like software in an open source repo versus documents versus in a specific decisions in smart contract versus.
36:45
You can imagine sort of a dot dot dot there and it's one of the reasons I like the extensive ability approach, because we can define contacts and you might have an entity that follows the standard where.
36:56
The Member context is a github handle or the Member context is a discord ID or the Member context is something other than a theorem address simply because i'd like to see it provide broad support for communities with different like ways of organizing themselves.
user avatar
Cent
37:17
If I can jump in and kind of piggyback off of john's question, I think the question of like.
37:25
The complexity of doing a pull request for someone who is not technically inclined i'm curious to know how dial star has been thinking about the way that people will submit produce schemas for the standard is there is it designed to be.
37:45
Really intuitive from a user experience perspective, or does it have the same kind of complexity as putting together a pull request what's the kind of like.
37:54
I think, also something like I was looking recently pulled together as like proposal system, and they have like a really like elegant way of interfacing with the API and i'm just curious like what like the experience of interfacing with editing and extending.
user avatar
z
38:08
The standard looks like.
38:10
I want to make a quick point about pull request being technically difficult if you're trying to submit schemas he probably should have experience with the software, I mean we could lower the friction but.
38:21
Not all friction is bad, so if you're talking about the the repos that whole the.
38:27
Collection of of schemas that are being built up and are intended to be used by others because it's not just everyone makes their own like ideally, you should use first what's already there and only extend or.
38:42
You know, basically build more schema if the schema that's present doesn't suit your needs, so I would argue that someone who wants to extend the schema or a team of people who want to do.
38:52
extensions to the schemas should be sufficiently technically skilled to evaluate whether the schema is already available meet their needs.
39:00
And if they do want to extend it I would hope that they would have sufficient technical skills that their extensions would be useful to others.
39:08
And so, with that in mind, I personally think that a little bit of technical friction on the boundary of proposing new schemas isn't necessarily a bad thing.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
39:18
yeah I would kind of very much agree with that I I let me put it another way, though I don't want it to be like a setup where we are gay keeping like schemas from like different parties, but I think like some sort of technical question like, if you look at it like how the ips work right.
39:37
anybody can submit and there's the only sort of like barrier to entry is just like a series like technical things like.
39:44
Every IP has to satisfy like a series like automated checks, as well as like some editor review, I imagine that would be like very similar for like.
39:52
Proposing schema extensions, as long as you like follow these rules and like what you say, makes sense, you put like a decent a little bit of extra to follow those rules or overcome that friction, you should be able to publish.
user avatar
Unknown Speaker
40:04
yeah.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
40:06
But, but we don't want people to like put like infinite copies of like the same thing, because I just create a lot of like noise in the schema system.
user avatar
Cent
40:15
yeah I shouldn't be also clear, I mean the question was not so much like the extension of the schema just more like i'm curious like.
40:23
let's say you know you run it TAO maybe it is like you know your Twitter project and it's like five people with a shared multi CIG.
40:31
And you're not like highly technically competent, but you want to like submit your doubt the standard like is it like a is it a technically complicated process to do that.
40:41
Or is it designed in a way, where someone like I don't know myself or or john like who don't have that kind of technical experience working with like an API or working with the contours that the standard would be able to easily do that.
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Joshua Tan
40:56
um I think that still tbd, but I would.
41:00
be the way I think about PRS it's something that, with a little bit of work, you should be able to interact with and contribute to.
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Matt Johnson
41:10
Can I throw my two cents sent I don't know if you read, we were looking at is the schemas and the standards.
41:18
are going to be primarily used by the the tooling community to build out the APP the gaps or the reporting and analysis environments, hopefully ultimately we're going to abstract all this stuff away from the members of Dallas who just go in and do what they do.
41:37
and correct me if i'm wrong that i'm hoping that people that just want to participate in a dour started out don't have to learn how to code and pull schemas and do you know P ours, you know, to set up a doubt that the you know, for whatever reason they're doing that.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
41:55
I will actually say that i'm definitely want to use cases is like 20 developers and the people that were engaging with who are most interested in kind of like adopting it like now let's say are often people building out tooling right because it's like a problem they're facing.
42:12
Like right off the BAT like okay if i'm going to publish data from these towels or extracted from the styles, I need them to follow some sort of schema right.
42:19
How do I do that, like other standards or the existing sort of things, and this is like precisely what this what the standard is like helping support, however, we also.
42:30
Or maybe I should say, I also would really like to see like Dallas themselves publishing certain kinds of data, like on their own accord.
42:40
Because they just want to write you know they like, because ultimately like these endpoints are supposed to be maintained or controlled by the Dallas I mean.
42:46
Ultimately, they may be hosted by like an external service but it's like it's so controlled like by the Dow itself because, like.
42:52
As a doubt you're right in the context of pointing at this thing right, so the question is, you know if they do want to extend that in some way and publish new kinds of data.
43:02
Ideally, like the data that they do publish at least the properties to that data should also be in some sense like publicized right.
43:09
So you can see organically like this is all the data across all the doubts that is actually being published and people like different Dallas can sort of, say, oh, like all the Downs are like all those are hot dogs are publishing do some of this data, like Maybe I should too right.
43:23
So that's just something about like sort of like How does themselves as curators of the data of their members can interact potentially with the standard, and with this on some of the schema tooling.
user avatar
Unknown Speaker
43:38
yeah.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
43:47
Any other questions folks that things want to discuss.
43:51
If not i'm might ask people here a question, you know if you're representing adele or a tool, you know what kind of data would are you most interested in publishing or what kind of extensions the standard.
44:06
Would you be most interested in seeing.
44:13
My God.
44:15
But I want to encourage other people to become as well, especially.
user avatar
Matt Johnson
44:20
So i'm tackling human behavior and.
44:27
Data doubt coordination or collaboration and within internal TAO coordination and the veal to scale learning and successes is all dependent on standardization, so my project.
44:45
relies on the adoption of standardization for me i'm actually trying to introduce coordination primitives and so.
44:57
And the ramifications are pretty dramatic so i've got a White Paper that i've written that goes in pretty deep into the rationale behind that So for me, you know there's.
45:08
A proposal has a whole voting stream that you go through that is one aspect.
45:14
But then that proposal if it involves people doing things there's another aspect to it, which is you know who's assigned to.
45:22
When When are they actually when is it work in progress when is it completed in needs to review when is it been signed off when is the bounty been paid budgeting up front, you know how much is being budgeted for this bounty of this task to be completed so Those are the things that.
45:40
I absolutely know the doubt community needs to standardize on I happen to be tackling this human behavior part which most people still dealing with the.
45:51
Voting governance part of things i'm sort of a step or two ahead of them and that's why, for me, this is very important that I.
45:59
have a chance to you know put forth what my beliefs are and hopefully have that you know take it into consideration and hopefully become part of a standard i'll leave it at that.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
46:11
awesome yeah let's figure out how to like get you into those conversations.
46:22
anybody else want to contribute.
46:31
I will just call on somebody.
46:39
caitlin are you there.
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kaitlin donovan
46:41
hi there i'm still just soaking in the information full disclosure i'm on month one at file Quinn foundation so.
46:49
This is a new frontier for me, but something i'm very interested in is user usability and user experience so standardization seems like a excellent step forward, however, I am curious you know, even if something is standardized it doesn't mean that it's accessible for.
47:09
onboarding ramps so i'm curious how you're approaching that.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
47:14
yeah i'm To be quite honest, like we're not.
47:19
I mean correct me if i'm wrong Z, but I feel like onboarding was something we just did not cover at all in the standard conversations.
47:28
And it's unclear how exactly the tooling itself will be used to support onboarding like that's much more like a ux question away.
user avatar
z
47:35
i'd say you're right that we didn't focus on it, but if you just think for a moment about the way that onboarding is being.
47:43
developed and expanded in the Community is that people are starting to come up with patterns and.
47:49
Like they're starting like as with anything Open Source there's a sort of collaboration on that layer, and if you have standard schemas for the expression of the way that your doubt.
47:59
behaves and the way that it expresses itself, and you can imagine that as like a back end so if you think of all the stuff being things being built or dow's supporting.
48:10
Data star standards, then you could imagine building software or process or a mixture of sauce software and process for onboarding that takes as a dependency, the idea that the Dow itself satisfies the Dow.
48:23
Dow star standards, which makes it easier for communities to share the development of processes and tools for onboarding I don't know exactly what they are and we haven't focused on that layer
48:34
But it's nice if you realize that there's a degree of dependency on machine readable facts about the Dow becoming available to pieces of software or processes that are targeting better onboarding experiences.
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Joshua Tan
48:49
Actually, with a working group to set up sorry go ahead.
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kaitlin donovan
48:53
No, no, I was just saying that's super helpful to bridge that thought of like where where you guys are headed where the Community is heading.
49:03
And then also how that can be applied for onboarding and I agree, like a working group to figure out something of that nature.
49:11
would be super beneficial, because for me coming in, as a newcomer I feel like you're either going.
49:19
From having coming in from like some sort of technical perspective and understanding the structure and the language or you're coming in completely new and there's not really a place to start other than discord which is its own.
49:40
set of set of learning learning obstacles.
user avatar
Matt Johnson
49:48
If you don't mind i'm gonna jump in.
49:52
My White Paper just is so 39 page long White Paper it deals with onboarding is one of its core approaches, because when it comes to coordination.
50:04
The way to coordinate is through communicating what it is that needs to be done and.
50:11
The key thing is for new new people coming into a doubt quickly understand where things are at what's this data, trying to accomplish and so.
50:20
through coordination primitives we can absolutely address onboarding and so that's i'll put a link in for the White Paper if anyone's curious to look at it and.
50:32
joshua and I can figure out how this can you know I i'm totally sensitive, the fact that i've got a project that wants to you know move forward on this agenda, and I certainly don't want to you know compromise a global standard for Dow.
50:52
You know, for TAOs, but I, but I, but you know there's some stuff in there that's worth looking at because it may very well be something that you realize is an interesting approach to tackling this stuff.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
51:06
Of course, thanks matt.
51:09
On the onboarding question I just thinking like I was actually just on a call with.
51:17
Adam McMillan at disco which is kinda like a fun interesting project working on verifiable credentials and also like TAO onboarding away.
51:25
And yeah I think you know, like there's it is kind of like an interesting distinction between let's say like people want the tooling developer side who are much more interested in certain kinds of questions in certain things they want to see in the standard or in a standard.
51:42
versus people like running actually doubt themselves.
51:47
And they're very often motivated by and like that's part one includes both entities right.
51:54
and downs themselves are typically very interesting things like onboarding like practical questions like, how do you set this up and it's not always super clear how to get the standard which is like a technical schema really for like data, how it needs to flow.
52:10
In order, like how to get that.
52:13
To communicate or interface with the questions that you know thousand are asking about onboarding, but I think this like this, this proposal with this idea that he mentioned around like.
52:24
tooling some way of like maybe identifying a couple of tooling developers that are building onboarding for things for Dallas and trying to organize something there that could be a really interesting working group.
52:38
yeah I mean there are folks who are interested in, particularly in participating and sort of like being part of those conversations, let me know or just posted in the chat and we'll kind of say that.
52:48
And let you know if and when it actually get started.
52:55
Okay.
52:56
We have three more minutes is there anybody anything else people wanted to bring up any questions comments.
user avatar
0xTFT
53:06
One thing that I think may be interesting to have a standard on is identities, so, as many of us are familiar with, there are a lot of.
53:15
Attempts at fraud online people will pretend to be one of the developers and to do, fishing and perhaps a standardized identity for members of the Dow might be some way to help fight that.
53:33
This json ld standard has room for, for example, telegram names discord usernames Perhaps this could one day be integrated with the platform's themselves.
53:45
Or do you guys think about that.
user avatar
z
53:46
We talked a decent a bit about D ID is and for starters, like you could imagine the a TAO who used instead of a theorem address as its.
53:57
context that it's its identity context, we could have D ids which allowed people to choose to bundle their various identifiers, there were some prototypes of that kind of.
54:09
Data specific bundling in like the Meta game community that especially for organizations using source credit instances, you could bundle up your github ID your own chain address your discord ID and basically any identifier that you wanted to be.
54:25
Using to merge your identity that particular implementation and Meta game was not based on the ideas but isn't so far as.
54:37
Like i've discussed it with people, I think that you'd want.
54:41
A D ID and then you'd want a record that was controlled by the sort of owner of that D ID whereby they had some degree of sovereignty over their own entity resolution because the challenge with this kind of identity data is.
54:54
That you know, some people may still choose to.
54:57
maintain somewhat segmented or pseudo anonymous identities, even if they want to make them rich suit anonymous identities with a wide range of contributions across a wide range of.
55:08
platforms, and so we have to again sort of manage the tension between dictating that everyone has to follow the following pattern versus like giving people.
55:18
The capacity to express their identity through essentially sovereignty or control over their own entity resolution and that, in my opinion, is best done with D ID is where you control your D ID and you decide how much information you want to enrich that D ID with.
user avatar
0xTFT
55:37
very interesting, thank you.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
55:38
And also give a brief report before we close that there's a working group that already is happening.
55:46
In the dial star.
55:48
Roundtable where we're basically a bunch of like.
55:52
let's say identity and verifiable quintessential tooling developers are working together to identify like, how do we extend the standard in a way that you know reflects precisely these questions.
56:04
So that Dallas can implement a form of identity that works for their various a lot of different potential use cases but it's it's turns out it's actually extremely complicated.
56:15
And as you can imagine just in the Di D calls, which is like a completely different like separate standard kind of working group that's been going on for like years it's like a lot of these conversations are just really complicated to resolve.
56:30
So we are still kind of in the process of absorbing information from all these previous efforts in order to identify like Okay, how do we sort of set these things up.
56:39
And all these for like all the learnings all the conversations that have happened, including like sort of just technical performances that are.
56:47
either already exist or need to get built, how do we sort of like use them appropriately for the dial context right that.
user avatar
z
56:54
that's important, though, because I do think we have a slightly narrower context, then the w three see.
57:00
And so, like keeping that in mind, we may be able to come up with a pragmatic solution that both acknowledges the its own limitations, as well as.
57:10
optimizes for a set of things that are more important to make this again pragmatic like we are operating in a world where we need a minimum viable identity, even if it's imperfect because.
57:22
The it's required to reduce the scam enos and to like make it harder to be an exploiter and so, with that in mind i'd argue that we do have a little bit of pragmatism on our side, where.
57:33
You know, we can do something that some of the existing standards bodies can't do because we only need to serve.
57:39
A smaller subset of use cases for identity and we don't have to pretend, like our identity is the end all be all of identity actually itself could be nested inside of yet another you know merged identity in so far as a higher level standard system called for such a thing.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
57:59
As mentioned that also absolutely agree hopefully fingers crossed you know but strictly restricted scope and wpc.
58:10
But uh just responded to Sam your privacy is a huge concern here but Jimmy from Cisco has promised that he will be defending privacy in all these conversations so.
58:21
i'm glad because that means you can blame him if it doesn't.
user avatar
Unknown Speaker
58:23
happen.
user avatar
z
58:26
But but also that's part of our our our preference or our context right so like one of the things that I think is important is that in some of the stakeholder groups, maybe there are people who are.
58:38
I hate to say anti privacy, but quite literally i've encountered circumstances where you have stakeholders who.
58:44
primary concern is the ability to like effectively reverse engineer or docs identities and so i'd like to think that we're operating in a context where that is not a requirement.
58:55
Where we want people to be able to have privacy is, we also want them to be able to develop and present a coherent identity that's hard to fake.
user avatar
Joshua Tan
59:05
Absolutely.
59:06
All right, um with that I will stop the call and stop the recording here.