💬

Public Goods, Scarcity, & Property Rights

Date

Nov 3, 2021

Role

Librarian + Research Coordinator

🔗 Initiative

🔗 Working Documents

Workstream

Agenda

Attendees

Agenda

Attendees

Action Items DB

Action Items Database

Meeting Minutes 

deadweight loss is created by private property

when applied to land can cause huge problems to society

land isn't created its inherited, keeping it by force creates a lot of problems to society

alot of this is choice

Paul

older game developer, quite critical about blockchain

a lot of it is how we set up the economics, a lot of the blockchain games being played are around virtual land. it mirrors ownership around physical land. virtual land is infinite so this doesn't make sense

how can we change the economics around the primitives we have

we don't have to do what has been done around physical land

Graven

even if we create virtual land there'll be tendency to create hubs and specialised spaces

desire to want something not necessarily 100% needed for the game mechanics. is it possible to do something to create it for the funding model within the game

iliad

would the question you posted about scarce resources in web3, thought of Twitter. its like a common square

not necessarily a public good but we could think about a situation where it could be

Graven

land is historically a scarce resource, now its our digital attention. how can we design it better to support people

anything created through network effects are created by people. its the most important scarce resource

block space is valuable because everyone thinks its valuable. if no one cared about the smart contracts on ethereum blockspace won't matter

Leon

people exchanging valuable ideas, goods and services, increasing quality of life around empire state building because people work on it

even land derives most of its value from social interactions

Graven

what creates value is your labour or your land? the physical land would be part of the commons but the things you build on top are yours

easier to administer in web3

Henry George, the idea that there's a self-assessed value you set to the land. you're the current licensor of the land then you say how much its worth. a % is charged on that value and paid out as fiat. other aspect was that anyone can purchase the property at that price

Paul

wildcard worlds trying to do something around conservation

Graven

created NFT trading cards for them, how you own the card is by setting a self-assessed value and paying the recurring fee and that money goes to world wildlife fund. its like an artist royalty rather than a tax

original was "this artwork is always for sale" created a piece of art that's always on sale with the Harbor tax mechanism and created a royalty stream for the artist

Leon

nonymos.com(?) using these property rights for space on a website

when you bid you pay a tax that goes to a public treasury

Graven

EIP1559 took some scarce block space and changed it from 100% going to private actors for gas fee wars so the burn mechanism is spread out across all eth holders and users

acknowledging that scarcity is inherent, changing that mechanism so the result benefits more people is great design

Leon

might be interesting to use this for ads on the website, democratise access to displaying ads an socialise the value created by the people that view the ads

could use it for some public goods redistribution thing

Sel

Kernel had a talk about decentraland, interesting to see how this land will play out especially with the metaverse playing out

Graven

speculation in the crypto space is huge, sometimes its necessary, sometimes its harmful

speculators squeeze out the fun of the game because they just squat on the land

Leon

any NFT we know, it is just hype not because of great utility

Sel

speculation hasn't had a negative effect, charitable impact. NFTs, bastardganpunks, friendDAO. random NFT where he'll donate everything to some random charity that the NFT buyers have. use proceeds of stake OHM indefinitely and have it as perpetual charitable donation. frenDAO

Optimism, retroactive public goods will be some of the biggest things to do

Sid

Andy, trying to partner this perpetual patronage of artists to pay a small sum from their NFTs whenever it changes hands. that activity of sharing should be reflected to artists themselves

Modifying tip party to do that

Graven

unexpected nature of retroactive public goods funding is it good?

Sid

proof of hard work in the model, its not something new. web2 retroactively funds owners of company in the form of stocks

Sel

what metric can we drive retroactive public goods funding, proof of engagement?

can lose a bit of the narrative, but its a framework that needs to be established to be acted within

Lani

proof of engagement? like 2 or 3 members depending on members on the community. If multiple members confirm or affirm participation of that member

Graven

gave badgeholders the ability to vote, then its up to the project to allocate that money

thestratupshaman

instead of taking the milestones, get DHOs to develop some form in the ecosystem so each DAO is responsible for bringing value to the ecosystem in the selling of the seeds

for equity backing in the commons

1hive also

it matters if people are socially stratified, its hard to remove that but it might not necessarily be wrong. we should willingness to respond as it arises. eg 3 people who had The Commons start cannot have it begin unless 3 other DAOs come on board. a way to get public good DAOs.

scarcity vs prosperity is to be of service in some way. step out of my own needs to recognise the needs of others. so we don't have to save what i need to survive and i can do more what i have to create more for what I want

tension from global and local currency, wanted to back seeds with non fiat capital. different values. with rainbow seeds you can create whatever local currency you want.

Graven

cathedral vs the bazaar for public goods might be a good way to have it going

too often its gone to economics or some market, is there a better way to allocate scarce goods rather than a peer or number based market?

Iliad

+1 to startupshaman's rainbow seeds

Henry

roomates, you don't need some government to tell you to help out. there's a shared custom to have it going and you can coordinate

Leon

we see this everyday, we share lots of trust with each other, prepare dinner for the family and all

one big weakness of economics and rationalist community is that we often regard human beings as atomised individuals who are trying to maximise their value and don't trust anyone

many economists think we don't account for trust and relationships and we can consider other things

gitcoin grants you can observe some past contribution behaviour

should account for trust relationships

Ben

different ways that people are motivated, even a small amount of money can change your relatinoship to the task you're undertaking

trust mechanism can play a role in how we structure our organisations or incentive systems

look at what really motivates people

Sid

do you design cathedral or bazaar first, can't be binary. you can do both. crypto has shown us the middle path in which we can build both

QZ

can we talk about our projects we're doing? because we can move away from theory already

Graven's geoweb?

these virtual metaverses are divorced from the real world. we're trying to create something great, physics bending art etc. where we can embrace the best of both worlds and make it into one

try to get this money generated to the public, this is an opportunity where scarcity is inherent, we have one world so far and if we try to organise content around it we need some property right. if everyone buys into that everyone should be a recipient of that money so users, builders, artists, can get some of that

💬

Public Goods, Scarcity, & Property Rights

Date

Nov 3, 2021

Role

Librarian + Research Coordinator

🔗 Initiative

🔗 Working Documents

Workstream

Agenda

Attendees

Agenda

Attendees

Action Items DB

Action Items Database

Meeting Minutes 

deadweight loss is created by private property

when applied to land can cause huge problems to society

land isn't created its inherited, keeping it by force creates a lot of problems to society

alot of this is choice

Paul

older game developer, quite critical about blockchain

a lot of it is how we set up the economics, a lot of the blockchain games being played are around virtual land. it mirrors ownership around physical land. virtual land is infinite so this doesn't make sense

how can we change the economics around the primitives we have

we don't have to do what has been done around physical land

Graven

even if we create virtual land there'll be tendency to create hubs and specialised spaces

desire to want something not necessarily 100% needed for the game mechanics. is it possible to do something to create it for the funding model within the game

iliad

would the question you posted about scarce resources in web3, thought of Twitter. its like a common square

not necessarily a public good but we could think about a situation where it could be

Graven

land is historically a scarce resource, now its our digital attention. how can we design it better to support people

anything created through network effects are created by people. its the most important scarce resource

block space is valuable because everyone thinks its valuable. if no one cared about the smart contracts on ethereum blockspace won't matter

Leon

people exchanging valuable ideas, goods and services, increasing quality of life around empire state building because people work on it

even land derives most of its value from social interactions

Graven

what creates value is your labour or your land? the physical land would be part of the commons but the things you build on top are yours

easier to administer in web3

Henry George, the idea that there's a self-assessed value you set to the land. you're the current licensor of the land then you say how much its worth. a % is charged on that value and paid out as fiat. other aspect was that anyone can purchase the property at that price

Paul

wildcard worlds trying to do something around conservation

Graven

created NFT trading cards for them, how you own the card is by setting a self-assessed value and paying the recurring fee and that money goes to world wildlife fund. its like an artist royalty rather than a tax

original was "this artwork is always for sale" created a piece of art that's always on sale with the Harbor tax mechanism and created a royalty stream for the artist

Leon

nonymos.com(?) using these property rights for space on a website

when you bid you pay a tax that goes to a public treasury

Graven

EIP1559 took some scarce block space and changed it from 100% going to private actors for gas fee wars so the burn mechanism is spread out across all eth holders and users

acknowledging that scarcity is inherent, changing that mechanism so the result benefits more people is great design

Leon

might be interesting to use this for ads on the website, democratise access to displaying ads an socialise the value created by the people that view the ads

could use it for some public goods redistribution thing

Sel

Kernel had a talk about decentraland, interesting to see how this land will play out especially with the metaverse playing out

Graven

speculation in the crypto space is huge, sometimes its necessary, sometimes its harmful

speculators squeeze out the fun of the game because they just squat on the land

Leon

any NFT we know, it is just hype not because of great utility

Sel

speculation hasn't had a negative effect, charitable impact. NFTs, bastardganpunks, friendDAO. random NFT where he'll donate everything to some random charity that the NFT buyers have. use proceeds of stake OHM indefinitely and have it as perpetual charitable donation. frenDAO

Optimism, retroactive public goods will be some of the biggest things to do

Sid

Andy, trying to partner this perpetual patronage of artists to pay a small sum from their NFTs whenever it changes hands. that activity of sharing should be reflected to artists themselves

Modifying tip party to do that

Graven

unexpected nature of retroactive public goods funding is it good?

Sid

proof of hard work in the model, its not something new. web2 retroactively funds owners of company in the form of stocks

Sel

what metric can we drive retroactive public goods funding, proof of engagement?

can lose a bit of the narrative, but its a framework that needs to be established to be acted within

Lani

proof of engagement? like 2 or 3 members depending on members on the community. If multiple members confirm or affirm participation of that member

Graven

gave badgeholders the ability to vote, then its up to the project to allocate that money

thestratupshaman

instead of taking the milestones, get DHOs to develop some form in the ecosystem so each DAO is responsible for bringing value to the ecosystem in the selling of the seeds

for equity backing in the commons

1hive also

it matters if people are socially stratified, its hard to remove that but it might not necessarily be wrong. we should willingness to respond as it arises. eg 3 people who had The Commons start cannot have it begin unless 3 other DAOs come on board. a way to get public good DAOs.

scarcity vs prosperity is to be of service in some way. step out of my own needs to recognise the needs of others. so we don't have to save what i need to survive and i can do more what i have to create more for what I want

tension from global and local currency, wanted to back seeds with non fiat capital. different values. with rainbow seeds you can create whatever local currency you want.

Graven

cathedral vs the bazaar for public goods might be a good way to have it going

too often its gone to economics or some market, is there a better way to allocate scarce goods rather than a peer or number based market?

Iliad

+1 to startupshaman's rainbow seeds

Henry

roomates, you don't need some government to tell you to help out. there's a shared custom to have it going and you can coordinate

Leon

we see this everyday, we share lots of trust with each other, prepare dinner for the family and all

one big weakness of economics and rationalist community is that we often regard human beings as atomised individuals who are trying to maximise their value and don't trust anyone

many economists think we don't account for trust and relationships and we can consider other things

gitcoin grants you can observe some past contribution behaviour

should account for trust relationships

Ben

different ways that people are motivated, even a small amount of money can change your relatinoship to the task you're undertaking

trust mechanism can play a role in how we structure our organisations or incentive systems

look at what really motivates people

Sid

do you design cathedral or bazaar first, can't be binary. you can do both. crypto has shown us the middle path in which we can build both

QZ

can we talk about our projects we're doing? because we can move away from theory already

Graven's geoweb?

these virtual metaverses are divorced from the real world. we're trying to create something great, physics bending art etc. where we can embrace the best of both worlds and make it into one

try to get this money generated to the public, this is an opportunity where scarcity is inherent, we have one world so far and if we try to organise content around it we need some property right. if everyone buys into that everyone should be a recipient of that money so users, builders, artists, can get some of that