1. Rouven Heck

2. Cent Hosten

3. Josh Tan

4. Balazs

5. cswenberg (Conner)

1. Conor O’Brea

2. Mendes

3. Pion from Yourlife.justice

1. Design of the basic schema, focusing on ways of extending
Review of this doc:
Question of who is issuing the attestations
From peers,
From individuals,
or from DAOs?

1. Spec out a basic experiment where we share interfaces and reach each other’s top-level membership data

Cent
07:39
That was Andrei re oracles

Mendes
08:34
Andrei asked to be added to the Telegram group but I can’t do it due to their privacy settings. If anyone can reach out to them

Cent
09:00
Yeah, I saw that. I can reach out through another channel to work on adding him

Mendes
09:08
Thanks!

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
31:00
I can confirm Rouven is a robot

Rouven Heck
31:16
Pls. send me a VC about that 🙂

Rouven Heck
32:07
Rouven (Human/No Robot)

Joshua Tan
32:52
https://daostar.notion.site/DAOIP-Membership-via-Attestations-Working-Draft-448926bfc4c84f15b047ba4cad168017

Conner
35:07
I dropped some screenshots of some platforms above btw

Conner
35:19
https://www.notion.so/DAOIP-Membership-via-Attestations-Working-Draft-448926bfc4c84f15b047ba4cad168017#a06e05b032a341e5821dea11e35f2829

Rouven Heck
56:07
I need to drop - thanks all. See you next week.

Conner
58:20
Are there ways for multiple services to share a single role structure for a DAO instead of a DAO defining the same info in multiple platforms they use?

Conor O'Meara (he/him)
58:46
Thanks for the awesome discussion, folks. Need to drop but catch you all next week.

Mendes
59:06
Conner: I can imagine maybe with something like Orca?

Ryan Gill
59:30
Have to drop!

Conner
01:02:25
Gotta drop but really like the emphasis this discussion has taken on finding real utility/incentives for services to be leveraging a DAOStar standard 🙂

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
01:04:45
“People have lives” - this is the best April fools joke I’ve seen so far

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
01:05:19
Sorry for the joke, very good discussion today

Joshua Tan
00:00:05
I think in practice there's lots of like things you want to do with like shaping our chain data.
00:00:10
Obviously, like we use gas costs and storage costs.
00:00:14
That may change the way that like this, like you're not going to store like a little json launching right.
00:00:21
which makes a little bit harder, I think.

Mendes
00:00:24
yeah i'm just wondering more about some of these comments, like for the Members last name.
00:00:34
comments from yourself wondering if it should be included at all, so if it's represented, just like it is on changing might be.
00:00:41
tricky to keep updating everything i'm saying, because it might just start being financially viable, so you have this sort of incentive to keep things out of sync with the reality which is in grip.

Rouven Heck
00:00:54
In which of the use case, do you think it would even benefit of being rj I feel like most of the situations.
00:01:02
It doesn't I mean if you don't want the smart contract to act on something very specific.
00:01:08
And then it doesn't need be on chain, so I would say, many of the things actually moving more object.

Mendes
00:01:14
yeah i'm a strong proponent of being as much as possible off chain, I can just see it, how playing for more like protocol down to pretty much everything on chain and have requirements.

Rouven Heck
00:01:26
But even then I expected similar snapshot, so we will do more and more things off chain come to some conclusion.
00:01:35
and generate some kind of like result proof, maybe a zero knowledge, whatever compressed these are like the hundred people who submitted, and then we have a ck circuit, which will does that, like say like counts the provided of chain.
00:01:53
Statements or at decisions and then just provides that that proof and that's I think the mental direction i'm on.

Mendes
00:02:02
yeah I see those more like extensions to this drafting this proposal.
00:02:10
My question is more about what we have here the structure are we supposed to take into account that it might this representation might be just copy it on chain and, if so, we might have to.
00:02:22
Like include or not include feels like active make it a simple boolean or have a name or not.
00:02:30
that's kind of where i'm thinking not more intensely extensions have been like that.

Joshua Tan
00:02:48
So in OK OK, let me pull back a second.
00:02:53
and actually the conversation about oracle's the philosophy weren't here, we had a.
00:03:00
Who pointed this out, was it you ruben or somebody else pointed out the oracles.

Rouven Heck
00:03:06
I just jumped on it, because I feel like I think the same way yeah but.

Joshua Tan
00:03:11
Essentially, like you know.
00:03:15
I don't want to get.
00:03:18
My work with us so in the original sort of like yeah people you're going for a week like made a very conscious choice that we were going to go for like the often Meta data route.
00:03:26
Right, because it was just like too much and, like the space wasn't like both like all the applications were really like off chain.
00:03:35
Because like aspects was so high.
00:03:37
And you know it was like in some sense like just more reasonable to build these off chain was like just easier from adoption purposes, because, like a very easy, just like a lie on these standards rather than like changing and migrating whole vendor contracts right.
00:03:50
The um.
00:03:52
That said, I think you know we don't necessarily have to be so, you know, hands off when it comes to.
00:03:59
On chain questions here like we could make certain kinds of punching claims.
00:04:05
In this standard it doesn't it doesn't just have to be like a meditative standard I think it's honestly like probably easier for the sake of it, and you know, like moving fast and implementing fast do this, but if it's like important enough.
00:04:18
From like a use case perspective to like Saturday something around like how on chain membership is calculated we're how we're defining these things like you know edit fees and that's like something that's like legit and we could go down the road we could go down.
00:04:32
There, if that makes sense.
00:04:36
By the way, I also just want to welcome.
00:04:39
A little bit of opportunity for folks who are new I think I see Aaron and Aaron you've been you've been part of these conversations before okay yeah okay.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:04:46
yeah I haven't run the last one or two but i've been part of these yeah.

Unknown Speaker
00:04:51
yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:04:53
But maybe if you want to kind of briefly introduce yourself.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:04:57
hi.
00:05:02
I look like this.
00:05:10
i'm from your justice project we do decentralized reputation for.
00:05:18
For now is for blockchain projects, my name but.
00:05:26
We aim for.
00:05:29
All the world, and so on, you know.
00:05:34
We want to.
00:05:38
solve the problem of.
00:05:43
Lack of information before you decide.
00:05:48
Whether you want or don't want to interact with some person.
00:05:57
and
00:06:00
yeah I don't know.
00:06:05
What did I do this.

Joshua Tan
00:06:07
No problem, maybe, just like link the link your projects name in the chat that could give people some little bit of background.
00:06:14
check the website.
00:06:17
cool so let's just hop back into this so.
00:06:25
Connor Mendez collage and I had some time this morning to just like basically have a work session putting together a initial version of the.
00:06:33
Of the not the IP in this case, maybe IP but i'll have the document so you can see, this on in the notion as down IP membership, the accusations also I learned.
00:06:46
I am become this person nerve that only lives on the Internet, so you can tell, by how excited I am by this but I learned that you can actually share notions with people, not in the workspace I did not realize this before I was like oh my gosh So if you would like.
00:07:04
just go to the telegram chat later and just post your notion email, and I will show the internal the entire internal workspace with you.
00:07:15
Especially if you're a part of the death star one.
00:07:18
If it does not rejoice out one organization.
00:07:21
The young, this would just make things so much easier for me.
00:07:25
Because I actually I thought, like.
00:07:27
Truly something's.
00:07:28
something's wrong with notion if, like I can't do this I just realized I didn't know it could do it.
00:07:35
Any case okay i'm back to this so we're in the internal website, this is the document were previously working on just trying to figure out things like scope and use cases and it's a spectacular it's also really messy and Connor put together this here.
00:07:57
This really fabulous.
00:08:00
Meeting primer that we kept Actually, I would just encourage you to read it, because I think it's.
00:08:07
going to get you through better than anything I could do kind of just by talking it's actually like very well organized That summarizes things that happened in.
00:08:18
Boise number three poison or four, as well as some sense, but we are going to try to do invoice number five so today what I like to us focus on.
00:08:29
Is the design the basic schema.
00:08:32
And i'll kind of show off like what we're thinking about we, this is still very incomplete, because we just didn't have enough time earlier this morning.
00:08:41
But working on like the basic schema that currently exist and figure out like you know this is make sense, how can we extend this.
00:08:48
Then speaking out and i'm really glad that ruins here kind of sad that step i'm going to make it today, but spec detecting out of basic experiment.
00:08:58
Where you know we, meaning a set of services, trying to work with these kinds of profiles share interfaces and try to.
00:09:07
You know, consume each other's like top level membership data just to see like how that kind of thing might work, and doing so making progress on a question the counter post invoice number three, which is, how can we actually you know reuse each other's data.
00:09:23
And how can I sort of work in a world in which, like to say that's truly interoperable.
00:09:29
and supports like sort of composed of all services in a way that we imagine.
00:09:34
So let's see.
00:09:37
let's go back to copy first off any questions on that or any kind of things people would like to be clarified.
00:09:53
Okay um so let me go through the current version of this and let's just try to just give my this literally is just like we just dump a bunch of comments all little bit separately.
00:10:09
In order to try to make some progress.
00:10:12
and
00:10:14
we'll get some.
00:10:16
Let me just like introduced us and then we'll dig into the weeds here a little bit into like what exactly the schemas are supposed to be representing.
00:10:24
So, roughly speaking, the idea is like okay.
00:10:28
We have.
00:10:29
Actually, not.
00:10:33
wouldn't make sense for somebody else to summarize this.
00:10:41
corner you guys want to.
00:10:46
know.

Mendes
00:10:48
I had to leave early so i'm still familiarizing myself with some of these standards.

Joshua Tan
00:10:53
Okay, I interrupt for myself, because I was thinking.
00:10:56
My goal in this is to not be like the chair of this meeting to find people who are more expert than I, but somehow I still ended up sharing this which is.
00:11:08
I mean.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:11:10
This somebody understand, this is a.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:11:15
tragedy of the Dow.

Joshua Tan
00:11:18
The Dow.
00:11:19
I mean.

Conner
00:11:20
She also the most context on.
00:11:23
as well, so I think it's you should you should just go for it.

Joshua Tan
00:11:27
Okay, well, I still would like to sort of like figure out somebody to.
00:11:34
Take a leadership role in this.
00:11:36
And, or just like take the chair position, but in the meantime, I can leave this meeting at least okay we're back on this, so at a station this case and also this is something i'm literally learning from the actual experts in the room.
00:11:54
So.
00:11:55
At least in the context of the standard is just a record containing adele Member pair which is store buy at a at a station here sure we're just be sure for short.
00:12:04
And the base evidence for this hesitation at the dissatisfaction remember we're just talking about group membership here right is the data itself, which is we assume is publishing a member list through dial your eye so they're like conforming to VIP 4824 they're publishing.
00:12:23
A big list of this is, these are our Members, and they may be attaching additional information that but, otherwise, we can assume they're just publishing like this is the ethereum address this is a big old list of a theorem addresses.
00:12:37
That makes sense.
00:12:40
So.
00:12:42
As mentioned in you happy for you 24 on this members list could be January, through a whole bunch of different ways.
00:12:48
It could be calculated within a few years through know possession of tokens or you know threshold token of some sort.
00:12:55
It could be from a predefined membership list as enough to say for tribute or through some other credential protocol service like co op or social strategy, though, like his purposes, would be to kind of entity in this case.
00:13:08
The point of course is that the membership list is really being on.
00:13:14
Which.
00:13:16
is being provided by the dial through wri and we can sort of make that assumption in this case.
00:13:23
So the extension of that membership for the purposes of let's say, like the use cases we imagine that we're trying to support.
00:13:34
For these profiles, would be a sense of like Okay, so this is the kind of thing, this is the kind of.
00:13:41
Remember, like.
00:13:42
we're thinking like so we're taking the perspective, like we are issuers or providing like profiles to people right, including like list of all the data participating, or like the CBS and they were asking like this is the data, I would like the doubt to produce for my use cases.
00:14:00
So just keep that in mind, so this is not like what the data itself is publishing necessarily or, this is not, this is not like the IP 44 This is like an extension that satisfy the use cases we have in mind.
00:14:13
So.
00:14:14
They should be sending some information that includes like obviously this is the name of the dial.
00:14:21
This is the.
00:14:24
were started in the kind of determine what this means, but like the actual what it means like to be a Member in this now you published so, is it just like you know, a token that you have to participate, for a number of proposals.
00:14:41
Basically, giving some sort of.
00:14:44
indication of this is what when.
00:14:47
Where this is the meaning of the this big json blob.
00:14:49
blob i'm going to be getting from from occurring this down.
00:14:54
So the Members, of course, are still going to be things like a dream address.
00:15:00
Possibly things like active, though, we had a conversation earlier this morning and I think thought that this didn't make sense, as well as potentially but probably maybe not the name of the member, because this is, in principle, public.
00:15:14
And they may not want to like publicize that like private names it's like becomes kind of pii at this point.
00:15:22
So literally that's where we got this morning, so this could be extended with lots of different sort of properties or values that we think might be necessary.
00:15:33
yeah i'll just stop it there i'm, on the other side, we have basically the reverse version of value or I were for a given Member object as input, so this is something that an issue or should be implementing as opposed to this is something that at the Dow stone implementing right.
00:15:50
down here, this is where the issuer's implementing something where you know I feed them a member object.
00:15:57
And they should return a json this form, where Essentially, this is like the set this is kind of their CD This is like their name and the several organizations that they are in, including like the dow's themselves.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:16:12
Or you send the product wait sorry sorry who's issuing the dissertation the protocol or individual people or.

Joshua Tan
00:16:21
So the person that people is showing this adaptation, are the.
00:16:28
Think folks like station we're closer or people like providing some sort of profile for these bells The idea is that you know it's not we don't want.
00:16:37
To give the doubt too much power and making these adaptations, or like determining membership because, like Ultimately, this is not on changing or anything right.
00:16:46
it's, just like the Dallas was saying, like you were part of a member of my organization.
00:16:51
But they could at any point like change what they're emitting and so we're like suddenly you're no longer part of the doubt, even though you were originally.
00:16:58
So we don't want the.
00:17:01
The data have too much power in this so there's like a set of issuers there'll be issuing beside the stations and keeping track of like the historical progress.
00:17:11
Or the history of the of the doubt membership and tracking that this adaptation at this time is valid.
00:17:17
You know I like crawl through these things and provide us like basic data station and construct this organization with this kind of like CV to that way.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:17:30
yeah that makes sense, I was curious who, who is like going to a closer, asking them to issue it or if it was being issued by like like josh tan by quarter by Mendez right like individuals right he or she manifestations, but I think number two different ways to cut the same cloth so.
00:17:48
it's demeaning truck.

Unknown Speaker
00:17:51
No.

Mendes
00:17:53
i'd imagine that could happen, but not necessarily in terms of memberships which is kind of where we're.
00:18:00
At a session from other peers is the thing that has been flooded just not dive into it now.

Joshua Tan
00:18:11
So, in effect, like this is really focusing on like down adaptations from the Dow itself.
00:18:17
Supported by a kind of like a subsequent subsequent at a station, or like verification verification from the issuer right.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:18:28
yeah I just I just the reason I was asking about it, the way we've been.
00:18:31
Thinking about we've been thinking about it a lot in terms of contribution tracking and govern which is like a different part of the membership ideal um and we've been thinking, a lot more about it from the Member level like like.
00:18:44
The like membership is not so much the Dow saying something rather the shelling point have enough people saying something about something if that makes sense.
00:18:56
that's was curious to the issuer's I definitely agree, though I think I think that, like we're pretty unique, I think that, like station closer, a lot of people are doing it much more of the.
00:19:04
The like top level right, and so I think the first step of having just the the Protocol itself issue it like as a protocol, we have said that this is the thing I think is a much easier implementation.

Joshua Tan
00:19:20
I mean, I find it would be interesting to somehow support more of the like.
00:19:26
Pure adaptation.
00:19:30
And i'm kind of curious like.
00:19:34
Well Okay, I want to lock down like this version of the station first.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:19:39
I don't want to.

Unknown Speaker
00:19:40
But.

Joshua Tan
00:19:42
I honestly think that is like that isn't important enough use case like it's obviously his problems like, if you look a coordinated soccer.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:19:50
say I think I think there's two levels here like I don't want to derail where we're currently accidents, the right when when the start, but I think that there's like the second layer of like.
00:19:58
coordinate govern and source credit use more peer level access stations to to create like showing points that then provide like the shot and truth right yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:20:08
And I think reuven you mentioned like earlier in the previous call how like what is the example of a different level of like where there was at a station from a set of contributors, it was it was the ultimately became that membership in a group, but it was still sort of pure sort strength.

Rouven Heck
00:20:27
So, so at the moment the club land folks have experimented with different types one is like.
00:20:34
roles, you have in a discord because roles in a discord often is something which the Community and adele has people elevated to.
00:20:44
That you are the orgy of something or your bank list level to guilt X, Y zed so these type of things that issue them because.
00:20:54
You can as a box club and as a Bot can read this information and can issue a vertical credential to that person.
00:21:02
In this case I think they are experimenting using it just was a discord handle so it's not like the person who is the it's not the address, but given they have in many cases, both that could also issue to address.
00:21:16
And then the interesting part is you could also they can also see issue all the things that normally doing for gauged communities of like you haven't bought eight or something else.
00:21:27
And then the third thing is the maybe more interesting one is peer to peer thing that you make a statement in your discourse and 10 people thumbs up with an emoji and that can generate some other MIC at the station.

Joshua Tan
00:21:41
or interesting.

Rouven Heck
00:21:42
Product, something which is called kudos like you said, like.
00:21:47
Whatever kudos joss great call, and so I give you something and and the interesting part is we're just using discord as like the interface, and the bots in the background, are basically, then the Oracle like the active issues office credentials.
00:22:04
So you need to have some form of trust towards the boss, or like, in this case column, and then the next phase.
00:22:14
Once we get there, and everybody in discord potentially could trigger an event and have this at the station being signed by.
00:22:24
Their keys but we're not there yet so that's kind of like more for characteristic because that's much more trustworthy like people attached to each other in the US, then, then this workaround through bots because there's the trust of the box.

Joshua Tan
00:22:39
yeah yeah so it's essentially it's coming through the service itself.
00:22:43
Which is like essentially what video.

Rouven Heck
00:22:47
yeah I think just it's a practical approach to generating meaningful information in the US.
00:22:55
And it's not the purest version of like what we think should be the source of that.
00:23:02
But, like our progressive decentralization approach also applies here like what is where people hang out and are in the stuff.
00:23:10
Again it's not, I think that their their vision is more pure but it's I think it's quite practical I think today it's even worse, I mean, like all these 20,003 g's depending on them as an oracle.
00:23:24
And it works okay ish for now I think that's the direction I think, which I think is quite attractive yeah.
00:23:35
And then we know the other side's consuming it yeah so like if govern and others are like sitting on the other side to.
00:23:43
consume this data to build some form of reputation in another dog or an adoption or in a voting that are things the interesting part because it's a chicken and egg thing like someone needs to produce lots of data and others are consuming them.

Joshua Tan
00:24:06
I guess, I have to say, this is a I find the peer to peer question of like how to structure that other station.
00:24:15
really interesting from like an intellectual perspective also recognize it's like what it's like it's because it's like interesting it's also quite complicated right filter by data to support that.

Rouven Heck
00:24:27
yeah i'm not super certain with anyone from the folks us from this corporate the disco I think this girl is also like thinking about this.
00:24:36
yeah peer to peer building profile stuff.
00:24:42
So I think they are thinking more about civil schemas in that direction.

Joshua Tan
00:24:47
yeah so i've been an essay are usually here on and we can pay them to make sure that is where we come to the next one, if you want to discuss this.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:24:59
I saw that just stations in the agenda from the earlier.
00:25:02
thing, and I was just.
00:25:03
Paying someone else to them, I didn't know that that was even a piece of the Dow start thing we're talking about.
00:25:09
But I think that that's a super unexplored space that means it's it's popping up everywhere, but no pun intended, but but, but like literally, as we were talking about I was like our governor discord was like has anyone Mike started working on it at a station standard right so.

Joshua Tan
00:25:27
Does anybody actually.
00:25:29
curious, because one of the things I want to emphasize here, so good.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:25:32
Sorry, without please.

Joshua Tan
00:25:35
No.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:25:35
I just want to say that familiar with the brother D project.
00:25:40
is, I think.
00:25:43
I think this approach is very promising.
00:25:48
Because this.
00:25:49
sort of education but.
00:25:55
test many classes one one person, one wallet and.
00:26:02
Verification and so on.

Joshua Tan
00:26:06
So, like our use cases not quite proof of humanity actually like nine totally sure how we sort of think about or relate to like these kinds of proof of humanity.
00:26:16
Social proof approaches statistician.
00:26:21
Because the the use case we're really supporting here is like one that's very specific to Dallas right.

Rouven Heck
00:26:32
I guess but, like most of the Dallas you don't need to know whether that person is technically human depends on what you want to achieve.
00:26:40
yeah then yeah it.
00:26:45
depends.
00:26:46
How for artists who need to have some kind of like real world connection to whatever the issues they are the true owner of that.
00:26:57
i'm sure we have done this is relevant and maybe other stuff.

Unknown Speaker
00:27:02
yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:27:06
You know yeah we all we need is we don't need profanity or just like as long as you're like a sufficiently interesting robots that it belongs to enough dollars, that is, that is OK for us.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:27:18
Maybe someday we can I want a robot or something like that yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:27:26
Yes, you got a you're a human, you need to prove your robot.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:27:29
whoa whoa where we're making who says that just because rubens a robot doesn't mean easy human all right, like let's let's let's get off our high horses yeah all right.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:27:42
Okay.

Joshua Tan
00:27:46
Okay, so I mean i'm glad that we don't have to care about proofing amanda do I thought that we don't care, but like it's not.
00:27:55
We need to be very.
00:27:58
agile in avoiding all the rabbit holes that we could go down that's what i'm saying.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:28:04
The video every intellect.
00:28:08
rick.
00:28:12
rubin I believe you don't have a.

Joshua Tan
00:28:14
emoji representing you yet, but congratulations, you are now known as you'll be now represented by robots and all star long conversations and.
00:28:24
materials.
00:28:26
Over said, can we make sure that happens.
00:28:30
Excellent.
00:28:33
Okay, the um let me hop back to the actual VIP.
00:28:38
So.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:28:43
you're not sharing the screen and I don't have the access to.

Joshua Tan
00:28:49
Oh, you should have access to this, so this is like anybody can access it actually This is like free and open you just need to click the edit button at the top right to be able to edit.
00:29:00
The m O actually so you need to have a notion profile like an ocean account that says.

Unknown Speaker
00:29:05
hey.

Joshua Tan
00:29:08
So let me just share my screen, in the meantime, though.
00:29:14
So.
00:29:16
Roughly speaking so yeah there's a dial many IP 4824 so attesting to.
00:29:24
They belong to a Dell.
00:29:26
And this is consumed or index somehow crawled by an issuer.
00:29:33
Who then compiles this information in order to generate this membership object or provide an endpoint that can return this Member object.
00:29:43
So this is there, this is the part where to providing some sort of interoperable kind of own you know output that can be consumed by other issuers or sort of downstream services and maybe adding some you know different data and properties that you know it's specific to that sure.
00:29:59
As well as maybe like permission if, like the Member doesn't want to reveal certain things, but ultimately it's like you know, the issue is issuing this this block this json blob.
00:30:10
We there are questions around like whether we have we should impose additional expectations that ensures besides just hosting this endpoint, for example, like concerns around API.
00:30:21
But before we go on to that, just like there's this like basic transition, or like flow makes sense for like the kinds of like what the json blob supporting is that something that would actually be is actually useful to like.
00:30:37
You know closer or station or government.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:30:45
In terms of membership.

Joshua Tan
00:30:47
yeah and just in terms of like your your your like your profile thing you know, like how you like construct profiles, or how you reveal that you know this person is part of these groups.

Mendes
00:31:05
We.

Joshua Tan
00:31:05
Have it's not you.

Mendes
00:31:07
know we haven't done much work.
00:31:11
on it, but one thing that we're suffering and not sure if it's an issue improves from.
00:31:18
Supporting the Member the identity from the profiles initially improves that, even though I have a token an nfc and a different address I belong to this town so i've been thinking about how this would be represented, no I haven't gotten to any conclusion so i'm not sure he would.
00:31:37
would fit necessarily.
00:31:44
Basically, the membership with the adaptation would grow up with that the membership non.
00:31:51
yeah independent of the audience I think that's the way that i'm converging to it, but still not since old.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:32:02
So I like the structure, I can we were using that same like structure that you're using for for the membership, but for in a different like.
00:32:12
purpose i'd say.
00:32:14
yeah decision on the thing and we're doing a different level for what we're doing I don't know if we're going to need this information to be honest, I think.
00:32:32
Anything that's going to be interesting and I don't know if any of the other.
00:32:36
Protocols or companies have different perspectives.
00:32:40
Unless you're specifically a doubt discovery platform.
00:32:44
Right now we're generating everyone's generating their own reasons as to why someone is or isn't an adele like we're we're not reading from so many other people's like things like whether or not.
00:32:53
train station says you're in a doubt right, I think, like like there are TAO specific discovery platform is that this makes a lot of sense for.
00:33:01
But for my life, I mean I don't know Mendez I don't know if you have something I don't know what other projects represent here right now but Mendez you're looking at this differently.
00:33:14
I guess it depends what we consider membership like is there, like a abstract discussion, need to be have like wasn't mean to be a member.
00:33:20
Because now like what closer my defined to be a member is different than what we might define to be a member or someone else to find to be a member or someone else to find to be a member, and I think that's fair.
00:33:33
But I don't understand, I guess, I don't know why would be helpful to.
00:33:37
us right now that like until I I like this because I want to start using the standard because, like within ourselves I just don't know if we're going to be doing so much reading of other people's eyes and stations or other protocols adaptations yet that's that's what i'm thinking.

Conner
00:33:51
You know that's definitely very insightful I guess i'd be curious sort of hopkinson.
00:33:56
At some point here, and after maybe sent us this question i'd be curious to see the information you are collecting about your users and like how you're relating that to the organization's you represent.
00:34:06
Just like see because all of us like you said, like different services have different needs for the information they're collecting generating or aggregating.
00:34:14
And I guess this standard the ethos behind this just make the sharing of data more interoperable by sharing the interfaces versus necessarily each of us have a reason to read each other's data which is making the data more discoverable by default.

Cent
00:34:32
yeah I was just going to kind of build on that this is something that came up in the Roundtable.
00:34:37
kind of the question about membership itself as the as maybe being one level abstracted from what the standard might actually be useful for in terms of function.
00:34:47
And so perhaps it's possible to kind of keep the framework that we have here but oriented around kind of.
00:34:53
touch points that people have for kinds of modes of engagement that will have with Dallas and kind of produce a standard for categorizing that and then let organizations kind of figure out how that fits into their their membership framework.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:35:08
yeah I was about to say that's.
00:35:10
I think sent you hit it right on the head.
00:35:11
it's like the framework that you presenting the way we're relating it stations to some kind of proof of something that is extremely helpful and like.
00:35:21
it's actually very cool to see because, like I looked at the structure, you did, and I looked at, like the structure of our spec and i'm like Oh, these are like very similar already it's great.
00:35:30
But, like, I want to one level down like that would be more helpful to us right like to say Okay, what are we, like not like.
00:35:37
I get that this is the determination of a membership level, according to them, what are you determining the membership on right on that's that's the base level.
00:35:46
And that's what we're doing, I can tell you like, which I think, and I think it'll be more interesting because then it like it allows a little bit more visibility, my opinion is also something that reuven and I have argued about a bit, so I will say that, like.
00:36:03
I think it's up for debate, I think the interesting thing sorry son and before I power on.
00:36:11
Oh.

Cent
00:36:12
I didn't have anything to say go in there.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:36:15
And I would want to i'm actually looking back at that what what you what your share what you shared earlier, I can't seem to find it, but like.
00:36:25
The idea of.
00:36:29
Protocols being able to.
00:36:32
Now, this could be interesting, and this is something that we're actually also planning on at the database level.
00:36:40
Request access stations on specific things from other protocols there's actually an interesting idea as well.
00:36:45
So, not just the ability to give an atom station on something, but the standard of requesting an atom station from a protocol.
00:36:52
That I actually could be a lot more useful like to say hey like govern as a protocol says hey we're requesting a certain type of ad test station from.
00:37:01
A closer right and it then provides that I test station like.
00:37:06
I think that there's something here, and again I was like on the side, meaning that govern team, right now, because, like is there a standard like generalization of anticipation gives an anticipation requests.
00:37:16
Because, then I think you can get at the protocol level, I think it starts to make a little bit more sense, because we need a little bit more customized and what we're needing and asking for does that make sense.

Cent
00:37:30
So I think like shifting a little bit towards this kind of framework.
00:37:34
Potentially resolve some of the kind of time boxing questions that come up when we think about membership, and I think some of the points that we've been was making last week about.
00:37:43
More regular revocations and address stations is actually something that's interesting to think about here kind of having a more regular kind of cycle through which these vcs are produced in revoked and confirmed might also fit more in line with these kind of discreet engagement points.

Mendes
00:38:03
What would what this require revocation awarded have to be by timestamp.

Rouven Heck
00:38:12
Usually.
00:38:13
The two alternatives you just make sure expire two times so you can just say like what are being employee off could be something you just issue once a month or every two weeks.
00:38:26
And it gives you enough certainty if you really want someone to prove that they are still are you could go back and they could request another freshman and it depends on the use case I think there are lots of good use cases where because we are have different.
00:38:44
paradigm, now that like driver license used to be issue or five to 10 years, whatever it is, and then you need your focus.
00:38:52
needs to be mechanism to reverberate and revoke but, in our case, you could just like issue something a daily monthly yearly whatever depends on the use case.
00:39:01
or go back to your employer Okay, can you just give me confirmation that i'm still employed as of today.
00:39:08
that's like you get a criminal record if you if you open a bank account or you've moved to a country, then you go and request in that moment, and then it's.
00:39:16
there's no expiry but it's just it depends on the consuming side to say is that good enough for me that it's like a week or a year or 10 years old.
00:39:28
The example is always the driver license might be invalid, but the bar bouncer was the accepted, because then it's sufficiently for them to know your age, even if your knowledge of that.

Mendes
00:39:41
record this eliminate any for irrigation at all i'm thinking about the scenario where.
00:39:47
A user on quality can have multiple identities and we either us or third party or the US and solve issues if you prove saying.
00:39:57
I have like a third identity that you don't know about has approved that I understand and to give me access to this data which kind of makes sense, so i've given us for.
00:40:08
Like the list of other stations or memberships or access to a test that a user belongs to this, we can do that, based on the proof, but if you maybe we have to improve the user, just as a token, we have to issue every location for that or not.

Rouven Heck
00:40:24
I think the problem is any revocation is they who is the authority to issue the statement that's also typically the person who can revoke so what a government or the dmv can be that authority.
00:40:38
And many of their stuff we're doing might be pitch appear or this one Oracle who will validate that i've made one worker will.
00:40:47
evaluate that I was on this call, and when Oracle so like how and who is your authority to like revoke any other things and that's where it gets somewhat complicated and it's much, much easier if you just have the most simple data on without verification.

Mendes
00:41:01
yeah but in this scenario where the Aaron scribe if they're asking for us to test something membership were the ones issuing so were the ones that makes sense to to revoke so it's kind of.
00:41:14
problem gets solved in itself because you're basically adding a scope to those adaptations i'm not saying that i'm a fan or not a fan i'm just trying to understand the implications of this.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:41:28
yeah sorry go ahead.

Rouven Heck
00:41:31
No i'm still like i'm not i'm not sure we get through the question right but.
00:41:35
Yes, whoever's the string entity or anything they can and also revoked this, for example, like the big part of the doubt or I have a board a.
00:41:46
yacht club thing, so if you once you sold your eight, then they would remove your your your role in discord and scimitar you could revoke and credential issue to them and yeah so you can i'm not sure it's the right design.

Mendes
00:42:06
I guess where i'm trying to get at as i'm just wondering if we're getting ahead of ourselves and sons of we haven't even defined membership and now we're talking about.
00:42:15
Adaptation required, and all that, so you kind of feel like it's it doesn't have a solid foundation for us to be discussing this and we can plug a lot of holes into into this conversation.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:42:30
yeah.

Unknown Speaker
00:42:32
Good.

Joshua Tan
00:42:34
So, actually, I just want to like them, speaking of membership, I really like this site, it seems like something we should like take that first step.
00:42:43
And this is this is actually like I can, I can tell you, like we spent like a month talking about this in the original cost for one.
00:42:51
kind of expecting conversations and hopefully will not take us that long to go through this but it's like it gets more complicated, you would think.
00:42:59
Just like getting to a consensus on like this is what exactly what we want for our use cases um and I want to spend a little bit of time D into what Aaron said earlier, which is.
00:43:10
Just like really trying to clearly understand.
00:43:15
what's necessary what would actually be useful for this use case for for this set of use cases where like you have services publishing membership data actually thanks again.
00:43:27
I know if people are seeing this, you have to.
00:43:30
You have to open the.
00:43:35
These buttons just to get to what car put into the dark but actually visit this like gives you like a really nice view of what's currently going on in the US.
00:43:46
Obviously these different services, but essentially the question is like you know what would actually be useful, and it seems like from what Aaron mentioned earlier, like.
00:43:55
Being able to dig deeper down into like what membership actually needs and have like even like a little DSL where we're specifying this is how I define what these are the requirements of membership.
00:44:07
Whatever actually be really important would be important for fostering some.
00:44:12
kind of compatibility between services because that gives us an actual incentive or a way of interacting.
00:44:18
I want to, I just want to sort of explore that use case of it because it's seems potentially quite important, with its defining a requirement for how we define essentially this membership object.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:44:28
It is triggered a membership.
00:44:31
really wanted test, or is it.
00:44:36
involved.
00:44:38
In some kind of role interaction between Member and member in some other role and role structure might be.
00:44:49
Because membership is.
00:44:52
too.
00:44:56
wide.
00:44:59
dwight concept.
00:45:03
and

Joshua Tan
00:45:04
so good.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:45:06
yeah.

Joshua Tan
00:45:11
It definitely feels like there's like it isn't very wide concepts and there's like.
00:45:15
Really arbitrary ways of defining membership, just like you know, like you could look at Stop Shop strategy it's just like such high variation in diversity and like what kind of strategies people use Google to find booty which is like essentially kind of like membership pray.
00:45:31
which makes me think like.
00:45:33
This might be quite hard.
00:45:36
But that said, like we could like do take little bits and pieces of that to provide some level.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:45:42
Of functionality.

Joshua Tan
00:45:43
It can afford like right.
00:45:45
Does support like very specific use cases to promote interoperability between these.
00:45:50
different protocols that waters for provide.
00:45:54
I wanted to use this data.
00:45:57
That makes any sense.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:46:01
yeah.
00:46:03
Instead of membership, we can use.
00:46:07
structures.
00:46:09
and ask about what.
00:46:13
what's kind of fall structure you down.
00:46:17
and ask about it.

Joshua Tan
00:46:21
that's right, so this could be.
00:46:24
could potentially be.
00:46:26
A specification of roles.
00:46:31
what's hierarchy well.
00:46:34
cautious about that, but you know.
00:46:40
we're like unix.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:46:42
specification of role is the best, I think.
00:46:46
But other.
00:46:49
options.
00:46:57
I didn't know what.

Joshua Tan
00:47:07
Other people think i'm like for your services like.
00:47:13
there's like a specification rose some useful or is it just like.
00:47:18
Just focusing on like being able to demonstrate like type of membership.
00:47:23
According to a level proof for those are the requirements of it.
00:47:38
But did we lose people.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:47:40
Sorry, I feel like i'm just I feel like i've just been talking a lot so don't overwhelm but um.
00:47:46
So what i'm like my hypothesis about like the space is that the only difference between like TAO protocols.
00:47:52
is going to be how we defined membership like that is going to be like the difference between you look at like any like TAO tool right.
00:47:59
The key difference is just like how they're defining membership and what you can do with that membership.
00:48:04
Like whatever you whatever you can do on that platform is how that platform that defines down membership.
00:48:09
Right and so that's gonna be like you will have a huge spectrum of different things, which is why I think it's like to really be Compostable you have to understand what that membership means to each individual thing right.
00:48:21
So.

Unknown Speaker
00:48:22
You know.

Joshua Tan
00:48:24
I think I just want to be clear, though, like there's a difference between membership that's like the meaning of membership, according to the contract itself or let's say, like the institution and the notion of say.
00:48:37
At the notion of membership that down my choose to publish externally.
00:48:45
Because there's like.
00:48:47
Like okay so remember somebody out, you know we talked about the contract itself and, like sort of what these frameworks are offering like it's like certain a foreign says like about voting around throw control over like tokens blah blah blah.
00:48:57
No, no kind of permission systems if you're you know talking there, but here it's like a different use case we just saying like this, this Tower saying.
00:49:06
This person has been important enough or you know, whatever like there's some I had some sort of relationship with this person and publishing and information right so is the is the membership customer requirement is that.
00:49:20
Is that are we trying to sort of offer insight into the nature of the.
00:49:28
The underlying nature of the Dow itself and how sort of like you know membership is structured in here, or are we trying to say.
00:49:37
You know this is more like a one off thing where like the downside is like I want to publish like another station saying you know this person.
00:49:44
You know, is participated with us and you know, have a more or less or like bespoke description of this is what that sort of like what my sort of like adaptation needs as in like this person has this role or had these responsibilities bubble ball.
00:50:02
Now this level of importance.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:50:05
depends on our purpose and this.
00:50:13
Is the purpose is.
00:50:18
To get some clarification on the person that.
00:50:24
The membership is enough but.
00:50:28
We want to.
00:50:32
Like know if I can trust the person.
00:50:38
In some sort of.
00:50:41
affairs.
00:50:43
Then I want to know about your structure.
00:50:48
In addition.
00:50:52
What do you think.

Joshua Tan
00:50:58
I mean, I personally think like.
00:51:02
Asking for the role structures, like almost too much.
00:51:08
Because it's like.
00:51:11
Well it's not too personal it's just like it's just like why say expect the Dow every time it's wants to attest to somebody membership.
00:51:19
Why would they like be incentivized to put out the entire roll structure as part of you know that that the publication seems kind of like too much right.
00:51:33
And when it's not it's neither is it expected, I mean it's currently not the expectation that you have before you click for.
00:51:40
Precisely because he was like explicitly trying to avoid.
00:51:45
Making commitments or standardizing things around governance right because, like you know, maybe, like the organization doesn't have a real structure or like they have an arbitrary rules structure that is really complicated confusing it's really hard to say.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:51:57
URL structure is we have horizontal URL structure, and we are all equal yeah.
00:52:09
some kind of role structure yeah.
00:52:13
Of course.

Joshua Tan
00:52:15
not sure I totally understand.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:52:18
But they're all structure in this case is the.
00:52:23
One level they're all equal.
00:52:27
Simple structure.

Joshua Tan
00:52:37
Maybe it's a problem with the sound quality but.
00:52:41
So yeah they may have a simple goal structure, they have a very complicated role structure but either way, like my sense is like this is not something that we necessarily would like to ask.
00:52:50
For folks on because it's not totally clear like baby incentivized to produce it it's really necessary for this use case.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:53:01
Real structure.
00:53:06
And this might just be a personal way of thinking, I see real structure is very much an abstraction on other things.
00:53:13
Right like we have decided on this real structure, because of X, Y zed base layer data.
00:53:18
i'm much more interested in the base layer data that I am in the abstraction layer I guess that's what i'm trying to say you own This is again i'm not sure how this fits in but I guess This is like my theory at govern like.
00:53:30
any type of abstraction we would only I go to another protocol to ask if the Dow on govern wanted us to like unless users like say.
00:53:40
Like hey as an input to our own like TAO piece on govern we want to know the role structure of X, then we would go ask X.
00:53:50
Otherwise we wouldn't we would only look for the base layer of interaction like what is important to us as the contribution attraction layer
00:53:57
Like like the the abstraction layers is less important to us um unless a like again unless a community has specifically said hey we want this abstraction input like go get the attraction but um.
00:54:12
Does that make sense, like it.
00:54:17
I think i'm talking very specific about government but that's how I think about it, I don't know if that helps.
00:54:25
And I think it goes back to like what is the director, but we're doing like.
00:54:29
These TAO start trying to create a standard for what is membership, because then I think it gets a lot more than I think attractions, make a lot more sense.
00:54:39
i'm referring to if we're not trying to create a definition for membership, then I think attractions get really, really tricky really, really fast.

Joshua Tan
00:54:49
I would agree um I would kind of, say, like.
00:54:53
My my vision of like like success in this is supposed to like you know what are we doing like we're defining a standard that's really like fundamentally about.
00:55:04
applying to douse incentivizing Downs to adopt right and what I would love to have is like adopting the standard automatically we're like auto integrates.
00:55:13
Then to you know to govern or to closer what to station or two like like certain features in these organizations, just like that, just like makes them work rather than requires doubts that like you know put effort into like specifically integrated this certain thing.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:55:30
yeah so if that's if that's the case if that's success that I think that, like we've we've done way too way deeper than we needed to, because then you're right, I think, just if all we're wanting to make sure is that.
00:55:40
Like I can understand what the other like that what culture or what orca or any protocol has like.
00:55:48
that's fine like then you're I think we've accomplished this can accomplish that goal, but here's one of the ability to make it easier for us to say.
00:55:55
Yes, closers has said this person's a member, yes governance that this person is a member, I think that is achieved, I think the other question you asked of like how usable that is like how valuable will find that I think it's gonna be very hard right now for that, because, like.
00:56:12
I don't think data discovery ability is the problem that we face in the space right now I just don't think that's the problem, so I don't think anyone's tried to try to fix that.
00:56:19
I like maybe that's a heartache but like I like I think like I think like people aren't joining down because they can't discover them I think people are joining Dallas because, like Dallas have problems working.
00:56:30
And like Dallas or failing to provide a ton of value and Mendez I can I can see i've touched the spot, but like.
00:56:38
that's why I just got so I think josh by your definition the standard makes sense from from what we're doing and I just that's why I think i'm going to struggle at least personally to be like this is like.
00:56:51
No one wants to say who is what protocols to determine membership, the best way yeah you're right i'd be like that, just like hasn't happened and then like let's talk about the use case where what happens when closer says they're a member government says they're not a Member.
00:57:07
Then yeah so that now we have a profile we're like Member like yes down remember according to closer, no doubt Member according to govern yes that's.

Joshua Tan
00:57:17
So interesting to me.
00:57:19
I mean, I would love to see that.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:57:20
I think it's happening like like that's gonna happen right, so we already have different definitions of membership um.
00:57:30
So yeah yeah go ahead and this.

Mendes
00:57:33
To me, though, the definition of leadership doesn't belong to us and belongs to the down.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:57:38
Exactly exactly yeah.

Mendes
00:57:40
So that's why it makes sense for that.
00:57:45
makes sense for that field see that what what companies and protocols can do it at most is a test that that requirement is bad.
00:57:55
So if we're talking about something like you own any aussie 20 token and that's through one for membership that can even be the block chain itself acting as a decision of swords.
00:58:06
because it gives you the proof of ownership but in case of something like like closely, if someone comes in, with a third entity that they don't want to reveal they just want to use the their public.
00:58:19
DNS tied identity to access that.
00:58:23
out, then they can issue proof of ownership, basically, they have that.
00:58:28
And I think it's still fulfills the requirement, what happens in that case the way that I in in this particular case, I probably trust the inclusive, I request the other stations from two services that are conflicting.
00:58:44
And either the US or the doubt defines what services they they value more which i'm not particularly a fan of.
00:58:54
Or the inclusive wins because they have access, we can assume they have access to data, I mean, these are two strategies that I can see happening it's a very it's a very good question they're very interesting discussion, thank you for that.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:59:09
yeah I think memberships this doctrine, like, I think you can be a voting like again just very practically at govern I defined it, you are a member of a doubt if you're contributing towards the goal that down.
00:59:21
That is our only.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:59:23
This person had some connection to the doubt and they they had the right to do that and get things.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:59:31
Yes, with everything is.

Prapion Medvedeva
00:59:33
taboo, the word of membership.

Unknown Speaker
00:59:37
yeah.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
00:59:39
Exactly it's like each protocol does that thing all i'm we are all the funding it out by doing that thing like you could have access to a D work board, you can have access to a closer space you're gonna have access to.
00:59:52
voting right time down House and you can have access to govern instance of contributions, those are each different like layers in the circle of what you are, as a member right so that's why I think we're not doing things right.

Prapion Medvedeva
01:00:06
There is information is we know the guy.
01:00:10
He has the right to do.
01:00:14
thing 123 okay.

Joshua Tan
01:00:20
Okay.
01:00:22
This has been okay well we're already like way over time, so one of you know people have lives looking good on to it, but this has been actually like.
01:00:29
deeply interesting i'm so glad that we actually put together a concrete enough thing that people can like challenge and say this is totally useless to me i'm really glad it's happening now, rather than like two months now, so.
01:00:44
This is, this is actually a really good sign for me, because we had like exactly these conversations.
01:00:51
Okay, this April Fools.
01:00:55
Actually there's an old joke we're not producing a standard at all, this is just a joke i'm gonna post on the Internet just laugh it's like everybody.
01:01:04
know the young yeah anyways just saying this is a extremely sort of like regular part of process i'm glad areas challenging us to say like what the Fuck are we doing and let's return to this.
01:01:17
Next week, and try to make some progress on this in the meantime let's continue this discussion basic.

Mendes
01:01:25
question is it worth it to spend any amount of time on this working dropped, this week, or should we postpone and have another discussion like this seven days from now.

Joshua Tan
01:01:37
I think we should.
01:01:39
take some time to revise the just just to be like the week clearer and just like.
01:01:46
The main.
01:01:48
thing that prevented us from having this conversation like two meetings earlier is because we weren't clear on what we're doing.
01:01:54
So, having clarity on like this is exactly the proposal will give us a better sense of like Okay, this is, these are the exact objections, this is what's missing or This is like too much.
01:02:06
and allow us to actually make progress, as opposed to like deterring and like going in circles.
01:02:12
So I think if we write this down.

Mendes
01:02:13
On and since people over the chat to make sure that we have a bit more focused discussion over the next week.
01:02:20
Just because, like this was a great weekend to this, for we got to this point, and this was great, but it was only like 15 to 20 minutes and then felt like it wasn't long enough that we need to keep going.
01:02:33
agree so maybe just doing a bit of a sink work to make sure that we have a concrete goal next week.

Unknown Speaker
01:02:40
Yes.

Joshua Tan
01:02:42
So I think let's uh let's do some amazing work sent once you have the meeting notes kind of ready to share and i'll give you the zoom link of the recording that's actually just like convert some of that into like Connor style recaps that I think are absolutely lovely.
01:02:59
Just make sure, like the record like what's going on last 20 minutes, so we can follow up with it and not lose the thread.

Cent
01:03:07
yeah it sounds great.

Joshua Tan
01:03:12
Alright amazing I guess.
01:03:14
I gotta run and i'm starting right now.
01:03:16
So it will be key to eat, I will see you all soon and.

Aaron (he/him) - Govrn
01:03:21
it's not everyone.

Joshua Tan
01:03:24
Is.

Mendes
01:03:24
There folks Have a nice weekend.