Episode 12 Index Coop | Decentralized Crypto Index Funds
Newsletter Copy?
Status
[02:21-05:54]
Inspiration from Set Protocol to index coop
[05:35-07:36]
What Index Coop does differently in comparison to TradeFi
[07:57-9:18]
How Index Coop works
[09:19-11:45]
DPI In depth
[18:00-24:37]
More info on Index coop. Inner workings
[24:38-26:04]
Governance
[26:05-33:54]
The future of index coop
Title: Index Coop | Decentralized crypto index funds
Description: Index Coop builds simple yet powerful index products to help you access crypto investment themes. Hear Punia (Co-Lead of Product at Index Coop) talk about his role at Set Protocol, the impact of market index investment products, abstracting away complexity, longevity in the DAO space, DPI, BED Index and his ongoing contributions to the beast that is Index Coop DAO. Hosted by Humpty Calderon.
Tweet: Listen to hear Humpty ask about plans to create a DAO Index.
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index coop transcripts
Humpty Calderon: [00:00:00] Welcome to Crypto Sapiens, a show that hosts lively discussions with innovative Web3 builders to help you learn about decentralized money systems, including Ethereum, Bitcoin, and Defi. The podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only, and it is not financial advice. Crypto Sapiens is presented in partnership with BanklessDAO, A movement for pioneers seeking freedom from the limitations of the traditional financial system.
BanklessDAO will help the world go bankless by creating user-friendly on-ramps for people to discover decentralized financial technologies through education, media, and culture.
Hi everyone. I'm your host, Humpty Calderon and today I'm chatting with Punia product lead at set protocol and index coop, we explore index coop and the importance of creating accessible entry points for crypto, [00:01:00] such as decentralized asset management funds. We also take a look at some of the revolutionary processes that DAOs are experimenting with to improve collaboration and coordination. So let's get started.
Punia: I'm Punia I'm from New York City and really it might be because of my immigrant background, but I deeply believe in the necessity of each of us to find our place. And I kind of think of place on three different axis like physical, emotional, and spiritual. But I think that's like a really important thing and what drives me because finding the right place kind of creates deep harmony between us and the universe and out of that harmony, we're able to live like much more vivid, beautiful and impactful lives. And that's really what got me so passionate about Web3 because I think kind of the, what Web3 enables is really awesome coordination like we've never been able to do so before. And the end game of coordination in my opinion is really helping everyone find their like place and for us as a species to like really awaken.
And so currently today I'm like a PM at Set Protocol, which is like [00:02:00] this DeFi asset management startup. And we helped, I was on the team that kind of helped launch index call, which is a DAO We started on top of our protocol that kind of consumes our services. And within the unique group I've really been Involved in setting up the community and more recently leading product and helping build up the product in engineering operations.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. So what is Set protocol and how did that inspire Index Co-op
Punia: Sure. Yeah. Set protocol is basically asset management on the, on Ethereum. So we basically create ways by which people can create decentralized asset management funds and have some confidence that the person is not just gonna run away with their capital.
And, our like funds have really interesting properties that are uniquely enabled by like Ethereum, which is like each fund is tokenized in ERC 20. So you can actually trade a fund as you would like an index fund, short it, leverage long and do all these kind of like cool things that make it really possible with the rest of the kind of DeFi ecosystem. And really where we were is set protocol is that we've been trying, [00:03:00] like we've had this really powerful underlying software and we've been trying to like figure out different ways to go to market with it. And DeFi summer happened. We saw wow, like for the first time in crypto there was like this emergent genre. There was this kind of class of tokens like these DeFi governance tokens and for the first time there's really something, there's this investible category on Ethereum, and we could really create these index funds which we've thought about for some time. And in, in creating those index funds we thought it was a better fit for an organization built on top of us than for us to do directly.
And so with some of that kind of thinking we decided to really spin up the and it really started off as an experiment. Like we weren't really sure how it was gonna go, but it ended up blew me into one of the most beautiful DAOs that I've seen.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah, that's really great. In terms of index coop, it sounds like it functions like a DAO and versus set protocol as more of a traditional
Punia: That's accurate.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. Organization. That's cool. As a product manager at Index Coop, like what's your function, in the DAO and what [00:04:00] are like some of the things that you're working on right now?
Punia: Sure, Yeah. Like within the DAO as many of you all can probably relate, like your hats are new, they change often. Like I started off helping out with like marketing and setting up working groups and these DAO operations. But somewhere around like midsummer we realized that Index Coop is like a, It's like it's a beast and it wants to like own its own products and own its own engineering and it doesn't want to depend on like sets product and engineering knowledge. And so when that happened, we started pursuing this kind of idea of engineering and product autonomy more seriously. And so my role really transitioned into over okay, how can we get like the right kind of people, the right engineers, how do we have them communicate, how do you do like sprint planning and pods and stuff like that, the agile process within a DAO. And so really my role today is helping create that structure and bringing on like the right leaders to help propagate it and take it to the next level.
Humpty Calderon: Such a tough, but such an incredible job because of the fact that one, yeah [00:05:00] you're helping to frame these. But it's so valuable, right? In order for a DAO to function properly, there needs to be like these systems, like these rails for people to kind of plug in and just
Punia: totally. And we're realizing just how important those rails are. Like not only are they like important for like new people onboarding, but it, they're also important for people already within the DAO to have trust with each other because they kinda know like what somebody else is doing and how to work with 'em. And yeah, it's weird how this emergent structure actually ends up being like super, super useful.
Humpty Calderon: So what are, i guess in terms of what Set protocol, index coop, what they're doing and comparing that to TradFi what is like a good example, I guess a good parallel to what like is being done at these projects compared to like in traditional finance and how, why or how is that better?
Punia: Yeah i think like how it really buzz down to it is accessibility. And accessibility is like really important. You know You can think of being able to access like the [00:06:00] economic markets we're a part of as the way by which one person is able to benefit from the upside in like the society within which they like participated. Like for example, me holding like the S&P500 is like the mechanism by which, like I have upside into like the general improvement of the US economy. And, without having that like access, like it, it isolates me and it isolates my work and that's why you see such giant like wealth gaps that are beginning to emerge, or at least that's one of the potential reasons why NFTs 90s large yeah, gaps emerge and so what we do differently is really this kind of like points on accessibility. So as with composable DeFi structures, accessibility means like a lot of things though like the ones that we can lean on are like one, like anybody from anywhere in the world can access now, like the DeFi market, like the DPI or the metaverse market, like the MVI or like the data economy, the data. And it, there's no such like gates that exist anymore. They can even do it for like super gas if they wanna [00:07:00] do so on polygon. And that's really powerful. That like really binds us together all around the world into sharing upside into this new revolution that is kind of happening. On the second side, like we, we also enable like methodologists with like powerful ideas to help like construct these products and bring their visions to life and be able to provide a lot of these things like secondary market liquidity that are very hard to do. TradFi very quickly, like for us one thing we often hear is like talking to TradFi people is that it typically takes a few years for a index fund or an ETF to reach like a hundred million dollars in AUM. it’s like the quickest it typically happened. And for us, we like, I think we got to a 100million in the months. Now we're at some 400, 500 million really quickly and I think that's because of just the accessibility and flexibility that we really offer.
Humpty Calderon: This is all the funds on Index coop or one particular product?
Punia: I think cumulatively I'm not sure what the number is, but it typically ranges between to 500 million.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. Wow. That's impressive. So you touched on two things here. [00:08:00] So let's unpack that you were talking about DPI, MVI. You also were talking about methodologist. Walk us through what is a methodologist, how are they, how do you find them and what is their role?
Punia: This is actually kind of an interesting question because it's something that we're actually trying to make really explicit because we're being tested as so like what that specifically means. But in the general case, like a methodologist is somebody that has some unique insight onto the market and some unique kind of like distribution mechanism. But what they don't have is technological backend or the legal, like regulatory clarity to actually be able to like leverage those two things. And so what we provide to methodologists is a way by which they can actually turn their like vision into a natural product that people can invest in, Where they don't actually have to do any of the operations or bear any of the legal risk. They act as an oracle that submits like a data feed. And we as like the index coop really implement it and turn into a product. And so that's like the relationship there. Like we, we realize there's like a whole [00:09:00] world of like people that like don't understand crypto or technology, and they don't need to that's our job. And we can like provide that service to them and we can help them create these like really beautiful and magical products. And we've been able to do so with a whole host of like really different methodologists profiles including you know Bankless, BanklessDAO
Humpty Calderon: Yeah So you talked about not need, like there's there being people that aren't, familiar or, they're not necessarily the most proficient with crypto, but they don't need to be. In terms of what index co-op is doing with these indexes, like DPI, BED, MVI, like how are these like what was the, I guess the thought process to making them or, developing these indexes and what's their role in making crypto more accessible?
Punia: Yeah. You know like Oftentimes we're just it's kind of like a two-way conversation between the, like the methodologist. Like we try to do our own insight in understanding like the market to try to understand where the most friction is and where that friction can be solved through [00:10:00] technology.
Like the DPI for example, was like something that was like very clear to a lot of members of the set team that, hey, like we see this thing emerging we want to invest. Yo, we're like working at a startup like we don't have time to like really follow all these like tokens and trends and whatnot. And so we try to have that inside ourselves, like in house and do our work. But we also depend heavily on un methodologists that come to us and with their insights as well. And so we, so like product decisions are really collaborative with a methodologist and the work done there. And that's like the way to do it, it's like collaborativeness and openness and communication always produces like the kind of the best outcomes. And so that's really like how we decide to pursue like the products that we end up pursuing. In terms of what they really provide to people is really just like simplicity and safety, like those core values mean so much to people that like, only understand crypto from like a surface level because like if you're just like going into crypto the first time, like it does not feel safe and it does not feel simple. And so we're actually [00:11:00] able to serve as like the abstraction layer over all of that. Which is really what asset management does and package it up really neatly for a person to then consume. There's so many funny stories on reforms about like people getting, like their grandparents like to buy like the product. It's a super digestible kind of context Hey, this tracks this market. And you don't have to worry about anything. You don't have to worry about taxes balances. You don't have to like really worry about what assets are going in or going out. We can take care of all that for you.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah, that's great. I think, oh, I guess first of all before getting into DPI or you know why I like it. What is the oldest index or the first index that was built on index coop.
Punia: Yeah, it's the DPI, the DPI was actually built up before we even launched, like the index coop but it was the first product that like the index coop took on.
Humpty Calderon: Would you say that then DPI kind of sparked the coop?
Punia: It totally did, Yeah.
Humpty Calderon: There was a need for it then. Like for the, for there to be a separate entity to manage I guess this process
Punia: Yeah that's exactly it.
Humpty Calderon: That makes sense. Yeah. I mean For me, [00:12:00] I am a fan of DPI because for everything that you said moments ago, which is, you know what for those of us who are in this space and we're building and maybe just for everyone just generally, it's really hard to keep track of everything that's going on in the market, but we still want to you know tap into the market in some way and I guess take advantage of some of the value that were building into this ecosystem right? And so what better way than something like an index that can get a lot of that upside too, across the entire market. So yeah, I'm a big fan of that and certainly I think indexes are going to continue playing a big role in making crypto easier. And another one for that exact reason is MVI, right? I think that the Metaverse tokens certainly are valuable in the sense that they're incredibly novel and emergent at least the technology that's being built around them, but unlike DeFi I think that they still haven't gained that massive momentum, where there's potential growth still or not well, there's still definitely, I think, potential [00:13:00] growth into those ecosystems. And so to be able to like track that growth, I think is super interesting and valuable with the MVI tokens.
Punia: Absolutely. The thing we kind of struggle with tokens like the BMPI and these kind of like more niche trends is the underlying liquidity of the tokens that make index like that tends to be a bit of a choke point. But, you know like we're like thinking even bigger than like indexes. I think like at, like we can, we're super good at like abstracting complexity and we can do that like in a variety of cases. Like something that we were really exploring with synthetics over the summer was like making it easy for like somebody be a staker on their platform and not have to worry about like the debt risk. That was an interesting kind of opportunity that we saw that was like a little bit different from like indexes, but was able to deliver like a very deep like value prop to certain small group of crypto users in a very happy way. So we're really excited about this general opportunity. It's a really abstract away complexity and provide like this safety.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. And I like that [00:14:00] the tokens or these indexes that are getting built, there's like a link or some sort of alignment with the people that are helping to develop these with the methodologists. So as an example, the BED index or the BED token, That is a composite of Bitcoin, Ethereum, and DeFi. I believe that is balanced equally. I think it's 33% across all of them. But what I find interesting in that is that, I think the Bankless mission is to help people go bankless and facilitate education and Bitcoin, Ethereum and DeFi so it just feels like that is a sensible move for a project like Bankless to make and to develop a I guess a token that allow aligns closely to its mission to make this space more accessible and easier to participate in.
Punia: I gotta tell you, like working with DAOs and protocols is the most fun for me cuz it's like we're like being our own, recruiting our own party. Like it's awesome.
Humpty Calderon: So I am expecting then a DAO index in the future. I'm maybe you're already working then and you don't [00:15:00] have to drop Alpha if you don't want to, but I think that there's probably value in that because there are so many DAOs that have sprung up. Many of them tokenize as well. So And certainly I think a lot of them are really building tremendous value into the space and technology themselves.
Punia: Yeah, I couldn't agree more and hopefully, I know our pods are, I've been exploring that kind of theme for quite some time and hopefully we'll have some news and updates for you guys coming soon.
Humpty Calderon: All right. I didn't pull any alpha out of you, but that's fine. We'll move on . So what is the structure of the index DAO you were talking about PO Pods just now. What are some of the, different working groups within the DAO.
Punia: Yeah, it's it's been pretty like, interesting to see how it's all like really emerged. One of the first things that emerged from like the early months the coop was this idea of like different tiered levels of contributors. And that was to gamify a little bit, like this aspect of contributing to the coop and also to make, like this idea of giving rewards a little bit [00:16:00] simpler and more structured from the tiered owls. We came up with this, or we didn't come up with it, We created this idea a working group, which was a subgroup within a DAO, like a specific mandate and a specific time by which it like needs to get reinstated again. And we thought it was really important to attach like a time horizon to a specific group just so that like we could have these like quick well defined iteration cycle. I mean the working group stuff was really inspired by Peter Penn and a lot of the work that he's Meta Cartel. Basically when we realized we really needed to become an independent product and engineering organization, we took a lot of like learnings from the kind of agile software development by the storm and create these like kind of cross-functional pods that are these executional engines that exist.
So like traditionally, like before pods like If, for example, to launch BED if we had to get a request from design, like we basically sent it to like the design working group, they became a black box and they gave it back to us at some point, and that was a pretty messy process. So instead we create [00:17:00] these like pods, which are these teams that, you'll have somebody from product, somebody from entering somebody from design analytics or whatever, and you'll have them consistently working together and having ownership of a specific kind of product line. And so today we have two, we have the Leverage Indices Pod, which is led by Afro Mack and they kind of own every around like the lever indices that we have going on, and the Simple Indices Pod owned by Doha and Arrow, which is indices like DPI and BI and then embed. And so that was a real step function in our capacity of making an impact. And we're really trying to define like what the future of the organization looks like from here. Like we're running into like several challenges regarding funding and like a contributor onboarding and stuff like that, that you're gonna push us to find kind of new elements of structure. We're gonna try to do it a bit pro active Instead of reacting. But it's gonna be like really cool yeah, just to see what comes next. Thus far we've gotten a lot of inspiration from traditional software companies, but I think now we're really gonna have to start innovating on our own.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. [00:18:00] So it sounds like then the DAO has this pool of talent that can, that contributes in specific areas like design and Maybe like some sort of technological innovation and marketing, but these pods kind of gather individual contributors or people who I guess are specialized to be able to move quicker and build faster.
Punia: Exactly. Yeah. Through this kind of sharing of cons knowledge that they each represent.
Humpty Calderon: Oh, that's great. Yeah I've certainly, I can see how that could be a much better way to work. I think DAOs are just by nature, at least at the, at their current stage very messy because there's just a lot of people who are working while toes towards a common goal. They are working asynchronously, right? And so a lot of times that can cause some chaos and confusion in terms of who's doing what and when can we get something completed by So, it’s to be able to hold a group of people [00:19:00] accountable for something is probably better than holding an individual accountable for something.
Punia: Yeah. And symmetrically, accountability needs to come with ownership. So giving people real like A ch a chance to like really have an impact is super powerful.
Humpty Calderon: That's interesting. This is the second time I hear the word ownership in terms of DAOs I think yesterday I read a tweet by Chase Chapman and she mentioned something about the value in DAO is ownership, Of that, that people can own something and own processes. What is ownership? What do you think ownership is in terms of like DAOs and individual contributions?
Punia: Yeah. This may be like an incorrect framing, but I kind of view ownership natural freedom which is something that we crave. Like ownership really just means the freedom to like explore and do what you want with something like, so for example, with these pods, right? Like they get to they get input, but they ultimately get to decide [00:20:00] what, like the product roadmap has, what the product roadmap is for their product lines and they submit that to like they decide kinda what the content roadmap is and the opportunity to be like free in that regard I think is like very deeply emotionally and intellectually satisfying. And and it really is useful for us because when people are like deeply, emotionally, intellectually satisfied, they do great work. So it's truly like this kind of amazing one.
Humpty Calderon: So what does fluid hierarchies mean at the DAO?
Punia: Yeah. And this is certainly kind of going into my own personal philosophy, but I think where, like DAOs are able to differ from traditional organizations is that like I think hierarchies are inevitable and not bad, right? We have some conception of hierarchies being bad because we're mostly used to like what are called like power hierarchy, which are, these like violence or domination or status oriented like hierarchy that, that can make us feel like disempowered or worse off. There's like another host of hierarchies that we can think about, like kinda like growth hierarchies, like for example to [00:21:00] your, a much better interviewer than I am And that's great. And that adds a lot. You being better than me at that adds a lot of value to my life. Similarly, like we have these innate like hierarchies within us and what DAOs let us do is to have these hierarchies kind of be created and fully disbanded as they're like called upon. And so I think like right now, like a lot of the chaos that we see in DAOs is because we're trying really hard to attach a lot of like old school kind of thinking and organization building to like this new model where it's not quite gonna work. I think we need to draw a lot more inspiration from nature. It's kind of like how nature operates. It converges and diverges converges and it's this kind of natural adaptive pattern that makes it really resilient and produces like, really impressive outcomes. So similar with doubt. See this trend of converging and diverging of like several hierarchies that pop up to tackle problems whenever they occur within DAOs and so that's really what I think defines like a DAO [00:22:00] and how it's an notion of an organization.
Humpty calderon: What is an example of I guess these hierarchies in nature that DAOs can try to imitate?
Punia: I think the most fascinating one are like fungi,
Humpty calderon: Okay. It's not two guys a guy with two thumbs pointing at himself right?
Punia: Not quite I don't know if you've seen that documentary like Fantastic Fungi, but this kind of like system like this, Class of beings create, like basically if you go into a forest and you take a step like between below each step is like 300 million or 300 meters or some crazy number of these ceal like neural connections that connect plants and trees that allow 'em to exchange kind of nutrients and the like. And they kind of creates these like really flexible and resilient organizations that can kind of respond to like changes between plants basic species stuff like that. And I think it's a great example of, and then they could also like disband as needed to, and I think it's like a really cool example like in nature of how these networks ex exist and they're called like Celia networks. There's a fantastic documentary [00:23:00] called Fantastic Fungi that you guys should totally check out. Yeah,
Humpty Calderon: I, the fantastic suggestions of my Firefox browser, I was introduced to an article that was talking about fungus networks, mycelium networks, and was interested in, I found it interesting and I guess first of all, I was wondering if it got suggested because of DAOs because of the coordination and communication networks that are getting built now. And maybe that was a bit of a hint like hey, take a look at this or try to replicate organic systems. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting in terms of how they're connected and how they communicate. So what is the what, I guess what is the way that governance is run on the index co-op and what are some ways that people participated it in it today?
Punia: Yeah. In all honesty, right now, one of the things I'm working on in, in index 2.0 is really trying to define like a vision for governance, like has governance is today, like [00:24:00] basically all decisions that don't have social consensus or at least very clear social consensus fall into this kind of IP pattern that needs to get voted on.
And it kind of works okay, but it's like pretty inefficient and it's really hard to kind of For other people to understand, like especially new people onboarding. So like one, one of the things that we're really trying to like work on is like a vision for governance is kind of like what year 2.0 has with this idea of constrained delegation. And so yeah, so right now we basically have these structure, the working groups and pods and anything that doesn't, that can't be solved within those like work essentially goes to governance and that's a system test
Humpty calderon: Governance is hard, and I think probably more so finding, what is soft governance? Like what can be solved through some sort of social signaling and what needs to go into some sort of like hard governance, voting structure. I think those are like a lot of the things that are currently a lot of DAOs and anything, I guess with some sort of like token governance is trying to solve. What are some other ways that [00:25:00] you think that governance can potentially be how, I guess how can community decisions be made? How can that signaling and that decision making be made more fluid I guess for lack of a better word.
Punia: Totally. You know I'm deeply just inspired by Yearn track who is kind of like the head of upstairs, not one of my intellectual idols. And whenever I face that question, I just draw a lot of inspiration from constraint delegation, which is this idea that like governance should only be used to like delegate or take away power essentially. And in cases where like you Organization is functioning to like the stakeholders it represents, you actually don't see any governance. And I just think that's like a very kind of powerful idea. I think at the we don't really have a sense of, do we wanna do constrained delegation versus like kind of the Spartan Council idea that synthetics is. But I personally think that like yeah, using governance for that kind of express purpose super, super powerful. I don't think governance. Especially in DAOs that produce software where you have to vote each product or vote on each like hiring decision. That's just a bad experience I think for the DAO [00:26:00] and for the token holders. So I'm really excited to change that.
Humpty Calderon: All right. So what does the future hold for Index co-op? I know we touched on a little bit in terms of continuing to add more indexes. We're talking a little bit about governance, but what are some of the things that are on the roadmap and that you're excited for?
Punia: Yeah, I mean like the aspects of it that I'm, at this point, it's such a complex organization. The aspects of it that I'm most intimately involved with and excited about are really around like organization and product and engineering. So each week by week, we're getting like much more like a product and engineering organization that. And we're able to really do some R&D on some really cool products. So what do you see today with the, these kind of like sector indices and like these fly products we're gonna go far beyond that. There's so much of DeFi that we can build on and abstract the complexity away from. And there's so many interesting protocols that have approached us be like, really a UI for them. You know Be like the simple kind of one product [00:27:00] stop by which they can offer their services in their entirety to like the mainstream audience that they want to target. And so there's a lot of like really cool things that are gonna be happening there. On the organizational front, I think as an organization like what we're really understanding is that like we're even really really good at process and operations but we've missed like a lot of the soft side of what it means, bring people together. People are really binded by a shared fiction storytelling. So we're trying to understand what in next story is, why are we doing what we're doing to like, what end? What does that mean? And we're trying to really focus on understanding that culture, you know focusing on really deeply on the person that is a part of a DAO as opposed to thinking of DAO is like this factory that products, we're really an ecosystem. We have to recognize complete humans and a DAO needs to really be able to you know, address each part of what it means for a human to be happy. So anyways, so yeah, I'm really excited for the org to explore like this soft side [00:28:00] of organizational building and I'm really excited for product engineer org to really have the capacity to really amazing R and D and produce products way beyond what occurrence
Humpty calderon: Yeah, no, you just put a smile on my face. I, I really like that Perspective of trying to identify who is a member of your DAO and how they find happiness right? Coz if we're not asking those questions now, I think as DAOs grow I think it's going to be a lot more difficult in the future to ask these questions. The other thing I think also is that we're at such an early stage, for everything in crypto, but DAOs especially, I think that maybe right now DAOs are trying to really serve everyone where they don't necessarily need to. I think that DAOs do will eventually find a way to specialize and occupy a space and add value to that space and to their communities, you know to the people that are members of their DAOs. And so people will have an opportunity to join [00:29:00] multiple DAOs because they're, each DAO will represent a different piece of their identity.
Punia: That's a beautiful world.
Humpty Calderon: Yeah.
Punia: And that's really gonna require a lot of coordination from people like you guys that are really bringing new people into crypto. So yeah, but like that vision itself is incredibly awesome
Humpty calderon: Yeah. And incredibly difficult I think also because Inter-DAO communications are hard, Intra-DAO communications are impossible right now I think. I don't think that DAOs are necessarily communicating very well with one another. And so I think a lot of the problems in coordination are also happening because we are not being very efficient with the work that's being produced inside of DAOs. And then sharing that outside of to, so to support other DAOs as well.
Punia: Yeah, and like what's cool is that like even with all that in we're growing and we're attracting more and more talent and like stuff's like working
Humpty Calderon: Yeah. I, But I think that's, credit goes to the number of [00:30:00] people that have found value in this space and maybe just didn't have a place before and now have found a home in the fact that A, they're able to contribute, but B, they're able to be supported and find recognition for their contributions.
Punia: Yeah. I think that's, like I, I shared a pretty powerful frame. That's probably like the most rewarding aspect about being like a leader in a DAO which is being able to like, take these people from these really just like unimaginably different and diverse backgrounds and just seeing what happens when you give them support and give them trust and like that kind of magical stuff that they can end up doing like. One of our earliest member contributors seems to overly. Was like a private product work product lead and now is really focused on liquidity. It used to be like a chemist and like a chemical engineer and all that stuff. There's a lot of amazing things that can happen when you believe in people and you trust people and you give people resources to succeed. And I think DAOs are just unleashing this like latent talent [00:31:00] because DAOs understand that organizations are comprised of complete individuals, whereas previous companies thought of organizations as factories and it doesn't matter who you are as a person because hey, your job is just like I don't know, cut this piece of metal or something very constrain and you're just part of,
Humpty calderon: Yeah, you're right. You couldn't bring your identity to the workplace because that didn't matter. You had to bring a very very particular and very small subset of who you were or maybe just a niche skillset that you learned that really had nothing to do with who you are.
Punia: Exactly. No, that was framed much, much for concisely and perfectly. And if there's like a quick tangent, like I think that's like kind of the problem modern. Like we're training kids to really fit into this model of factories, which is, as you describe like your identity doesn't matter your niche skill matters. I think that's why so many people are falling out of that system. One, one thing I'd like to do with my life at some point is to really change that [00:32:00] educational paradigm.
Humpty Calderon: 100%. Hey, when you decide to get started on that, I'm happy to join you. That's my life mission too, is to change education. My wife's actually a teacher. and her and I have these discussions at length. She's also really tired of the education system and she's also wanting to start her entrepreneur journey to see how she can change that. But certainly I think that there are things that we can take away from the way that DAOs are working today and maybe applying that to the way that we can teach the next generation.
Punia: Hell Yeah that's gonna be like, you know we are talking about bringing down banks like man, we're gonna bring down like schools and universities,
Humpty Calderon: There next. I think a lot of these institutions are built on really archaic models and it's, we have an opportunity right now to really revolutionize everything. And the beauty of it is, like I said, there's just so many people that are eager to support this. And I think a lot of the reasons because they feel like [00:33:00] the system may not have failed them really, right?And they're looking to find a better way, not just for themselves, but for everyone and for the people that are coming right behind them our children.
Punia: Yeah. I think the kid's point is like super important. Something MetaDreamer says that's really Kids are kinda how we coordinate into the future. So Yeah, setting them up and changing these institutions so that, they're not like lost or cheated by the system is like the most important thing we can do.
Humpty calderon: And that's all we have for today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. And if you'd like to learn more about Index Coop, please go to index coop.com. And on Twitter @IndexCoop thanks for listening to Crypto Sapiens. Please give us a follow like in a five star review ever. You enjoy your podcast and stay tuned for our next discussion.