Episode 25: Metadreamer | Metafactory - A Community Owned Marketplace and Manufacturing Platform for Designers
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Metadreamer
Timestamps and Transcripts for Metafactory: A Community Owned Marketplace and Manufacturing Platform for Designers by Latsan#6466
Timestamps
00:00 - 00:45 - Crypto Sapiens Introduction
00:46 - 01:43 - Metadreamer Bio - Founder of metaFactory
01:44 - 06:24 - Metadreamer journey’s into metaFactory
06:26 - 09:43 - Building in web2 vs web3
09:45 - 14:03 - MetaFactory ways of value distribution
14:05 - 24:04 - Challenges/problem metaFactory is solving in traditional fashion Industry
24:06 - 33:10 - metaFactory behind the scene of production.
33:11 - 37:33 - Opportunity and Job availability with working
37:34 - 43:17 How DAOs can learn from mycellium organism
43:19 – Outro
[00:00:00] Humpty Calderon: Welcome to Crypto Sapiens, a show that hosts slight discussions with innovative web3 builders. To help you learn about decentralized money systems, including Ethereum Bitcoin, and DeFi. The podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only, and it is not financial advice. Cryptos Sapiens is presented in partnership with Bankless DAO, a movement for pioneers seeking freedom from the limitations of the financial system. Bankless DAO will help the world go Bankless by creating user-friendly onramps for people to discover decentralized financial technologies through education, media, and culture.
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Crypto Sapien. Today we are chatting with Meta Dreamer, founder of Meta Factory and all around Meta Thinker and Web3. You pick up the conversation with him, sharing his interest in technology and startups from an early age and how his fashion startup evolved into Meta Factory.
We touch on the inequality and inefficiencies of the fashion industry in the way Meta Factory is changing that. We also discuss DAO Tools and NFT wearables in the Metaverse. Tons to unpack here. So let's get started.
[00:01:18] Metadreamer: Thanks for having me. I go by MetaDreamer. I'm a software engineer and designer. I've been working in the crypto DAO space for just over 2 years now. I'm a part of metaCartel Metel Ventures, help start Metafactory and we've worked on projects like social grad and Coordinate and a few others. And , I'm all, I'm about all things.
[00:01:44] Humpty Calderon: Heck , man. The meta meme runs deep even in your name, well that's cool. So why don't we do an introduction as much as you're interested in sharing about where you started in terms of your path leading to web3, kind of how you discovered that and how all of that helped inform Meta factory, being developed
[00:02:09] Metadreamer: I think It originally started back in junior high when I was playing scape and just like other MMR PPGs gave me a lot as everyone was who's my age kind of growing up with the internet, but still knowing a life pre-internet. So I think the internet in general had a big influence on my path in life and did teach me a lot. I was actually like this might be doxing myself a bit, but born the same year, like a lot of the early internet technologies were created, JavaScript and some of these other languages. So that was a weird synchronicity, cool thing and then, in high school I used to build and sell computers, my Asian parents didn't let me get a job because it's the whole focus on school and don't worry about money type of mentality. So I had to find my own ways to make money.
So, from back then, I sort of had this almost as a forcing function, have gone through this path of not just following that traditional script of you're going to get a job and do this, do that. And you don't have to sort of think outside the box and find my own ways of making money through the internet. I started mining Bitcoin and then, doing a bunch of these things, online and just from room scape too, it taught me a lot about supply and demand and markets and, with the grand exchange and all that. So I think my time playing scape influenced that too. And then, I think from there I went into computer engineering and university. I had an interesting modern AI, but I also had a fashion tech startup that I was working on while I was in school. A lot of that stuff actually came to a head after I graduated, I was just doing some consulting work, building web-mobile apps, full stack development type of stuff.I was about to actually go into grad school for AI. That was, around when all the sort of 2017, crypto hype was happening or after that actually and then, seeing all this incredible stuff being built in the Ethereum community with defi and, this is like 2019 ish, late 2018, early 2019, like deep bear market seeing that holy crap in deep bear market, there's still like all this crazy innovation happening here. There must be something deeper than that here and I'd heard about Ethereum and bought Ethereum back in 2016, 17. So, I saw it as an investment thing, I sold my Bitcoin early, so I'll salt to you about that but when I saw Ethereum, I was like well, here's the next opportunity but I didn't really like hit me deeper until I really started to get involved in the community and start to understand deeper what's really going on in the space after seeing a deep bear market. All these incredibly smart people are still super interested in this. And then, from there I went to my first crypto conference, at devcon five in Osaka and just really getting to meet people and see what the community's all about. Originally I was like, I didn't really see myself actually contributing to the community because I was like, I don't know solidity, so what use am I going to be? But then after going to the conference, I realized that like 95% of people there don't need to know solidity. It's much more than that, much bigger than that so that was really promising and then after that, I joined MetaGame and MetaCartel. And then, those branding, the way I actually joined metaCartel was they posted a branding competition for Swag DAO back in like 2019 and then Swag DAO, essentially I, that's where I came up with the brand for metafactory and I started working with metaFactory since then.
The idea for Swag DAO actually started in devcon five and Osaka too, where they saw all this like, merch and, everyone wanting this merch has all these like mech fruit and merchable. They were like, What if we just made a DAO that could make merch for others and then that was the original idea but then evolved into much deeper than that with like, holy crap, we can actually change a lot of systemic issues with like, supply chain and fashion production and, coordinating people and creativity and things like that. So , that's kind of the story till present.
[00:06:26] Humpty Calderon: Tons to unpack. So the fashion tech startup that you were building while at college, did you have any idea of like these crypto rails at that time, or was it completely like built on web 2
[00:06:46] Metadreamer: So all that stuff was like super web 2 and it was interesting because what's happening now with NFTs is what we were like trying to get at back then, but not really like closing the gap just because, like there's a unique property with NFTs In terms of the interoperability and sort of global recognition of like all this art and creativity being on one common medium which is Ethereum blockchain it was really about recognizing the cultural impact of fashion and wanting to shift it from something you need directional consumer behavior, which is a big brands, make products and then advertise to us and consumers buy those products because they see things that make them feel bad, make them want to buy stuff versus feeling more of like a connection and being engaged with a brand or creators they like, having blurring the lines between like producer and consumer and you start to see that actually take form and like web 2 still over social media where the meta has shifted from just content creators or YouTubers for example, I'd say the 2010 to 2018, like ERA meta to now it's way more about, influencers who like make seemingly genuine connection with their fans. It's usually one-sided, So people feeling some sense of attachment, the Kardashians for example. Their secret formula was that they made their whole audience seem they were just another one of their friends, that became the meta and people, TikTok and Snapchat, the shift from Instagram to Snapchat and then TikTok was all sort of a step towards wanting more realness. Realness was essentially the currency of the future, but with web 2 stuff, it's still sort of really fake, because a single person at the center with millions of followers, it's a very one sided thing where a certain person can only build a certain level of relationship with so many people and at a certain point it's just becomes kind of shallow and Web3 is really shifting that because It's really making things genuine where people are coordinating online, starting to work on stuff together, like build projects together, being fully and on people. Through the lens or through the utility of cryptocurrency and being able to enter into agreements together, execute and make things happen together. Instead of just sharing information online, they can now share values and ownership that has taken a big leap forward towards that sort of realness being the currency of the future. So I think it kind of just evolved from there. And I think when I saw the thing for swag out, I was interested in crypto. I was like a software engineer and then also interested in the fashion side. I was like, well, hey, The center of all the Venn diagrams that I'm interested in, so it makes sense.
[00:09:45] Humpty Calderon: That's pretty rad, man. So let's talk a little bit about that, realness that you just mentioned, so the realness in web2 you were saying, that these central parties are the ones that are extracting all the value and everyone else is just facilitating that, whereas in Web3 it's maybe a little more distributed. Can you talk about how that distribution of value works at MetaFactory? Both in terms of maybe the products that are created, but also the people that are working on metaFactory?.
[00:10:21] Metadreamer: I think one of the things we've learned in the process of building metafactory is, throughout Web 2 world, but especially in the fashion industry, like the people that create the value are not really the people who have the upside, like the pattern makers and the designers and a lot of them, they might just be being like paid some minimal wage, at this like big corporation like Zara or other sort of fast fashion brands or like big legacy fashion brands, all the value sort of accrues to the investors and the sort of entrenched owners or leaders, of those organizations. But the value generated is actually coming mostly from the people doing the work and then also, especially in fashion, the sort of popularity of any given brand is actually determined by the people who choose to wear and represent that brand and, sort of be evangelists of it and that almost becomes forced now because people have to pay influencers to pretend to be genuine that this is a product I'm representing, but it's more an advertising thing so that realness is gone in that dimension. But, in metaFactory, we were trying to shift that kind of starting from first principles, forget about who owns what or who invests in what. Let's start with where's the value being created?
Let's figure out ways to like measure that and then flow back, ownership and resources to those people who are creating the value and it's this sort of fundamental shift in the way we're thinking about value distribution and, this is the type of shift that's not really possible for the legacy Web2 world to do. I think this is like a key thing because a lot of people in Web3, they're focused on just taking a concept or something that works in web 2 and just like putting some slapping web3 on it and then calling it a day, which is fine but the real interesting stuff comes when you look at, what things can you do now in web3 that were like impossible to do back in web2. So in MetaFactory now, we can actually distribute ownership in the form of our governance token to everyone who contributes to the metafactory whether it's design work, fashion production work, like operational help, content creation, community writing, like, Bankless, I'm sure you guys are familiar, all the different like type of working groups you have, figuring out, how to those people generate value, How much value generated have like a peer to peer way of determining that and then doing like regular red track of distributions to those people and buyers as well actually. So the big part of metaFactory originally was, we wanted to support the people who chose to support us and give them a say in the future. So instead of just buying something as a consumer, you buy it and then you get this governance token that can help you influence and shape the future of that brand or product. It becomes that sort of entry point or sort of the open arms for them to like to come and engage more or do more. And in addition to that, they get access to DAO, they get access to all, like all these virtual worlds, like all these other opportunities like so much of what we do is like an experiential product more than it is the actual clothes we're making. The experience of being a contributor to metafactory and being a part of this community engaging and doing these cool things, like the real product more than the physical machine making that's almost the means to the end.
[00:14:05] Humpty Calderon: So you mentioned brands, and so one of the things that I think you and I have talked about in the past is kind of like how the fashion industry is broken today. I think that there's a lot of fashion giants, the Nikes of the world and the Lulu Lemons. As far as you see it is like how MetaFactory is building out as a community, as an ecosystem and how is the organization of the DAO able to work differently, I guess in terms of how the decision making happens, I think you mentioned to some degree in terms of the incentives and reward structure for people who are contributing to the project and creating this value, can you maybe describe some of key challenges, in terms of like the traditional fashion industry and how it's broken and then how metaFactory is seeking to solve some of those, through some of these systems that it has put in place both for its creators, but also maybe even for like a token holder or for other projects that are collaborating within.
[00:15:13] Metadreamer: I mean there's a lot of issues that we're kind of tackling in different ways. I think, one of them of course is the sustainability problem with legacy is like the way of operating is usually, you produce a bunch of stuff, sell what you can and then have a discount sale season to move the product you couldn't sell. And then if there's like any leftover, you literally just like a burner to throw it away. And there's like an incredible amount of waste that goes into that, Gucci for example, burning, like literally metric tons of shoes because they can't put them back on the market because it would devalue the value of the brand, if they sell them for too cheap. So they're actually forced to burn them, which is crazy how much went into first creating them and then all goes to waste. The interesting thing about metafactory is we started at the exact same time Covid started. So we were operating and figuring out how to create this decentralized fashion, supply chain, in the sort of constraint of covid supply chain issues and kind of physical production of things being slowed down. That was a blessing in disguise because it was a forcing function to help us figure out what's the most decentralized way of making that happen because if you think about decentralization, the whole purpose of it is anti fragility or, not having some central point of failure, or central point of abuse or control. And that's the problem with the legacy supply chain in this push for mass globalization, mass expansion of the economy. We didn't really think about what happens when stuff hits the fan or, the whole. It's like there's been tweets recently saying how everything is a Ponzi when you think about it. In that sense, the way the legacy world was built, It's not designed for it. It's interesting because now in that process, there's been a lot of people we've connected with through metaFactory that have been working on ideas for like more sustainability and sort of micro-factories for localized production, we're not shipping things across the world and, spending all that we can actually produce more localized to different regions and with materials and products that are specific to that region and have the sort of connectivity of the organization be emergent from the sum of all the individual agents acting inside of it, rather than coming from some like central point of control, which then is either like acquiring or sort of having top down command of all the different, aspects of this like network. And a lot of people we've connected with from the fashion industry, They did not like the legacy industry, did not give them the time of day when it came to like their evolutionary and revolutionary ideas on how to improve things because they're too stuck in their old ways. And so it's interesting because MetaFactory was able to connect with them, work with them and give them support in a way that the legacy industry couldn't. We were ready to give them ownership of the metaactory and have them execute on their vision and their products, which they wanted to do anyways. So it's a really huge win-win situation where these people were wanting someone to enable them to put their ideas out out there and, when it comes to zero waste design and, kinetic garment theory and, micro-factories and like dig physical, production and tracking of royalties, for example, pattern making, if a pattern maker could like tokenize their pattern and then open source it to anyone else can create derivative, apply different graphics or designs to the same underlying cut of a hoodie, for example, that's like innovative and then actually get royalties back on all the work that they, did there. That would be huge because the issue normally in fashion is like, If you work in fashion and you want sort of the upside of ownership, you have to sort of start your whole own brand. You have to figure out the marketing side of things. You have to figure out production, you just might be a pattern maker, but you have 2 choices. It's just like, go work for some wage salary, a corporation or figure out how to do everything yourself which, for a lot of people they might not be that sort of like business oriented or whatever, like hardcore working people that can make that happen. So they're, they just have to settle for that. But in MetaFactory, we change that because we can let people focus on the thing that they want to focus on and the thing that they can do best and then let other people sort of fill in for what they can't do, but distribute ownership and have the upside of everyone having their own sort of company or owner initiative, but in a way that's like collectively owned.So you get the best of both worlds and with the DAOs that we work with, it's the same thing where, usually if they wanted to produce merch, they would either have to figure out how to do it themselves or pay someone a lot of money to do it. With metaFactory, we literally pay them to drop merch us, which is crazy if you think about it.
But it all works out because metaFacotry is like a tune to recognize value in all the places where other systems aren't. So we recognize the value in a community bringing customers to us. So we've done drops with Sushi, Yearn and Bankless. All these sort of big communities essentially like summing together the clout of these communities and cross pollinating people between these communities and there's a certain sort of prestige now to like, doing a drop with metaFactory. It's because we're sort of putting these communities together in a positive way and the value of that is essentially the reason why, if you want to do a drop with us, we give you robot tokens proportional to how well your drop cells. And a lot of the time those robot tokens would actually be worth way more than the value of the sales if we were to like, take some sort of cut and then give them some part of the revenue, that's a sort of normal transactional like business way of thinking about it and for us that like really complicates things because this is a bunch legal issues around, if we're actually selling and producing physical products, it's like, tax issues and like, all these things you have to take care of that whole structure to it, which the separate LLC and DAOs structure like, Figuring out legal engineering, that was another part of it too, of how do we actually do this like physical, real world operation in a like, compliant way while also having an experiment, Who with this DAO and the two entity model worked out really well as a way to operate as we have essentially, it's like an oracle into the real world with this LLC and then the DAO members have access to see all the financials and legal paperwork. And, everyone in the DAO is compensated in the same way but we have this separate sort of container in the legacy world that can act, it can pay taxes, it can take payments in fiat, it can do all those things.When we were working with bankless too, a lot of the value that working with at metaFactory led to a lot of these communities get is actually not in the merch, but we end up advising people on DAO structures and economics and stuff. in the process of building metaFactory, we've had to figure out a lot of this stuff and when we talk to people, they sort of see behind the scenes and when they're working with us to see behind the scenes what we're doing, it can be pretty inspiring and give people ideas on, and we end up helping people figure out their DAO structures and how to build and, grow their DAO.
That's exactly the case with Bankless before bankless DAO happened, we were working with them on their merch drops and, as they were designing Bankless style, the whole like to like, the LLC and the DAOs being separate, compensation and measuring value and like all these things all came up and it ended up being the collaborations actually, end up being much deeper than just like the surface level like we're doing merch or doing the drop. And that's a cool part about it. It’s like the merch is actually an enabler of a lot of other things downstream and it helps people represent the culture and all the stuff, but it's so much more than just. I'm wearing this logo or representing this logo, or a really transactional thing. It's a much like deeper positive relationship we build
[00:24:06] Humpty Calderon: I think the one thing I keep ringing in my head as you describe this so elegantly, it's an ecosystem, but it goes beyond some of the expected things from this platform, from this product, which is merchandise and fashion partnerships. It sounds like there's also a certain experiential treatment or opportunities for projects that want to collaborate in creating more robust, if you will assist them with onboarding and rewarding individuals like you said, in terms of tokenomis and DAO structure. I think there are a lot of really big challenges, because especially I think 2021, an explosion of DAOs, like every couple of days there was, or if not every day there were several DAOs launched and I think with that comes challenges of like, how do we get started? How do we build out a structure that has good governance and is inclusive and thoughtful and its design, if you have a token which most projects do it like how do we find ways to create and sense of alignment with our contributors and both core contributors. Those that pop in and just want to support the project in some small way and then irregularly. So that's actually really interesting, something I didn't know that metaFactory was doing, I guess because it happens behind the scenes with the people that they're connecting with and speaking to. It's interesting too because I think I just had a conversation sometime this week with someone when we were talking about how the DAO space, while really incredible to watch grow and mature. The one thing that I feel that is a challenge is, it's a very inefficient space for many reasons, but one of them is I think that DAOs tend to solve the same issue over and over. There are no standards, there is no way to kind of learn from other DAOs and how they operate to be able to create something that maybe is a good baseline for projects to start with and as the project grows, iterating based on their own communities, their own needs, it's really cool to watch or cool to hear, I guess that mataFactory does something even though it's maybe not so, maybe you don't mention it that way as in terms of these are standards that, could work for everyone, but really as an adhoc, like as needed, someone comes in, establish a relationship with the project, and there's a potential learning opportunity for everyone.
[00:26:45] Metadreamer: For sure. I think we're so early in this, like one of our members said we're in the first inning of a four game season or I don’t remember what he said exactly. Something like that. So, it's much bigger than even what any one of us will be able to do in a lifetime. So in that sense, I think most of the biggest hurdle with DAOs, is not going to be like the practices or like the tooling or like what we're building or any of that. it's actually more about unlearning, a lot of the legacy concepts and ways of thinking and mentalities and trauma we have, I've seen time and time again where the biggest barrier for people to sort of achieve most of what they want to achieve and sort of have fulfillment and happiness is not actually, a lot of people in crypto, it's like they're so focused on the compensation or the incentives. It's like, people aren't doing this because they're just not incentivized enough to do it. When that can be the case a lot of the times, but, What we've noticed is like so much more about people having the confidence to even believe that they can do it. In the legacy world, people are just so used to being taken advantage of and being undervalued that put them into this fearful state of not wanting to take leadership or ownership or having this level of imposter syndrome and, having this fear of committing or engaging because they know, usually anytime in the legacy world you're engaging with a certain organization or corporation because it's something they say, it's usually to their benefit but not your benefit.
So there's this unlearning process that needs to happen for people to then evolve and realize that, there can be this actual positive ways of working and with metaFactory, where it's from day one, it's not really been about we're going to create some standards or protocols to tell people how they should run their DAOs. It's more so we're going to take the technology that's here that we have at our hands and apply it to the real world to try to make something happen that's genuinely valuable. We want to have an actual product, doing real productive things. and then, from that process, whatever we do to come up with that, that's the sort of path we tread. We're sort of on the beaten path I guess and then we can go back and see what we've created in the process of trying to do what we're trying to, like what things have we created or what practice have we had and just share those out with others and if they resonate with others, it's essentially pattern matching. You start to see everyone sort of having these diversion experiments and then you talk with others and then you pattern match and see what are the synchronicities or the repeating fractals across different organizations, you look at those and then you build tooling around that. This is the whole meta thing like, it's not really about any specific tool, but the meta layer of how we're using those tools and how we're making those tools work with each other better. In the coming years, we've talked about Digi physical and NFT wearables and stuff, and the whole process of figuring that out, it was like it wouldn't really be easy for us to just be like, here's the best way we think it should be done.
And then we want everyone to adopt it, get a bunch of VCs to invest and then use their influence to push adoption of our standard against all others and sort of take that route but, for us, we really wanted to connect deeply with the people who have been thinking about these problems and understanding them and working in this space with the VR community, particularly the Japanese VR community in like, they're way ahead of the game in terms of actually under what it takes to have an Opera metaverse, learning from them, what are the real issues in terms of avatar formats, rigging characters with wearables and cross world interoperability of like 3D files and all these things that a lot of people don't really go to that effort to learn from what's already out there.The thing is with crypto, we're not really doing anything new. We just have new tools in our tool belt to attack the same problems that have existed for centuries and that people have been trying to solve for a very long time. So in that sense, It's imperative for us to bring in those people who we can learn from and empower them with these tools, use these tools to actually not just do crypto stuff for the sake of crypto stuff, but actually start to apply this stuff for things we say it's good for and instead of trying to get everyone to become a crypto person and learn how all this stuff works, learn about the intricacies of like gas fees and blockchain, that's not really relevant. We have to start thinking a level higher like how we can empower them with these tools now to accomplish what they want to accomplish whether it's artists or creators or designers or 3D world builders, as much as they don't expect us to know how to design stuff, crypto people shouldn't expect them to have deep knowledge or understanding of blockchain. But we still need to be able to bridge a gap and work with those people. With MetaFactory, we've been doing that with whether it's on the fashion side or the Metaverse side, like the intersection of the Metaverse community and the crypto community is very small right now. A lot of crypto people I talk with in the Metaverse, but are kind of disconnected from the people who are building on it and thinking it's definitely getting better now. Like a year or 2 ago, it was like very little overlap. It was basically gin and like 10 other people but now it's gotten much better but I think there's that for us it's always been way more about having fun and like connecting with the right people than any sort of life, vanity success metrics or the sort of like web2 corporate model of the main central goal being maximizing GDP, maximizing revenue, maximizing like stock price or quarterly revenue or whatever it may be.
[00:33:11] Humpty Calderon: Yeah, to your point in terms of slowly cross-secting or intersecting with VR, I've seen a few people that I would consider established in the VR space slowly appearing in the comments of some of the other people that I follow on Twitter that are regularly talking about crypto and web3 But, it's not fully there yet because, I guess another thing, prior to working in web3, I guess in terms of decentralized technologies and crypto, I was building in the VR space and I was attending events regularly, VR events and going to meetups and got to meet some really interesting people that were thinking about VR. This is like six, seven years ago. Now, I would consider myself fully immersed in this space. I peek over at those other communities, I'm like, nope, not there yet, we're not talking together yet. So it's great, I guess hear your perspective too in the vision both in terms of not just the opportunity that there is to work with these folks who have been building out this space for years, but also maybe to some degree, a temperature check as to where we are at currently in terms of potential collab and even discussions, amongst the 2 different communities.
[00:34:40] Metadreamer: For sure, I think there's obviously this huge negative effect too with all the recent NFT hype which it has double edge sword, which gets a lot of attention and you could say no press is bad press, but, at the same time, it does turn people off from the technology as a whole and kind of stifles innovation like VR chat for example, recently banned anything relating to like NFTs or crypto, one of the creators in our community, he had a showcase in virtual market, which is the world's biggest VR event. That happens every year and he wasn't even selling NFTs or anything, it's just that in his booth, he had a link to his website and then on his, he had NFTs that he sold, booth got banned just for that and they were digging, so it's makes sense that they're doing that because they're trying to be extra cautious and just seeing the backlash from the gamer community especially, against NFTs and misinformation about its environmental impact and things like that. But a lot of justified hate, I think in terms of, today's NFTs just being really like low effort cash grabs. people just sort of hyper focus on this one use case of like, PFPs and like PFPs seems like a subset of niche use cases. This is just the idea that like, NFTs are about some sort of piece of a picture or some video or something attached to some representation on-chain and that's what an NFT is about. Even that is so limiting because if you think about it, like 99.9% of everything in the world is non fungible. Every experience you have, every relationship you have, every moment in time is non fungible. So, there's so much more to do there, than just to use NFTs to represent some sort of image or art. But because that makes money and people have convinced other people and that's things like NPTs are genuinely like game changing technology, but people are able to use that against others because people who might not understand it might think the extent of this game changingness is like just in this picture stuff.
So if the people tunnel vision on that one use case and then milk it to no end until it has all these negative side effects, so I do think they are justified in that, and it limits people from seeing what they're actually supposed to be about, which is something much deeper and more like interactive, dynamic, functional and necessary, than purely just like tokenized art
[00:37:34] Humpty Calderon: I mean, I feel like we can keep going the last time we talked, we talked about identity and we both operate in that space, so it's always very interesting discussion to have, but the one thing that I'm going to ask before I run outta time is mycelium. I know you're one of those proponents that thinks about mycelium and the things that we can learn from that organism as in terms of how we can develop these organisms that are DAO. So can you kind of briefly touch on like, just generally the parallels and some of the things that you've found in your research in terms of how DAOs can learn from this other organism?
[00:38:20] Metadreamer: For sure, So mycelium Manon, who isn't aware, it's essentially like nature's internet, or nature's blockchain, essentially, it is deeply interconnected, like systems underground that act as ways for all sorts of organisms, fungus, forms of mycelium, but trees, plants, like they all sort of communicate and distribute resources and nutrients and like sort of send signals through that like inter interaction network and it can be many miles long and it's an actual organism somewhere in between a plant and an animal. And this sort of forms like, a lot of nature's intelligence or the vehicle from which nature distributes information and value and resources. So blockchain in a lot of ways is also like information and value like the internet and the internet itself, the structure of it is very much like mycelium. It's interesting because like mycelium, it's really tiny and it can have billions of sensors essentially, and just a handful of dirt. But thesame sort of patterns and fractals you see in a macro scale too, like the tree branches structures, the whole like golden ratio or fibonacci sequence that's repeated in nature. The same sort of patterns like our brain actually are neural pathways and the internet actually takes a similar structure as well. So you realize that, humans, we have this sense of ego that we think that we're sort of like peak intelligence, and everything we do is the best. But a lot of the best sort of design actually gets inspired by nature and this sort of bio-matic form of thinking or designing where nature's been along and sort of designing and coordinating all these really complex systems that keep everything in perfect balance for a very long time. You know instead of us creating this more like a mechanical sort of human, like top down way of thinking or, doing things which is like, very new and sort of not evolved because even the concept of garbage, for example, like nature doesn't have the concept of garbage.
Humans invented it and it's like a big regression because with nature everything just decomposes. And that actually happens with mycelium and fungus as well. That serves that purpose of decomposing something and putting those nutrients back and reusing them. So I think in the same way DAOs is going to be about changing how we structure our organizations from these sorts of robotic, mechanical, top down command and control type.
Structures again, another fractal of that same network structure that's in mycelium in our brains and everywhere, throughout nature and use blockchain and DAOs to coordinate human labor essentially, and uses information and value highway to like distribute resources from where they are to where they need to be really rapidly in real time. And allow people to like emergently coordinate human labor and do stuff together and exist for as long as they need to be. And then, as soon as it's not needed, it can be decomposed and then the energy sort of, redistributed throughout the system. So, it's really about figuring out this biomedical way of thinking and redesigning our organizations in society from a bottom up way and the complexity of these systems should not come from some sort of top down decision making but more so emergent out of like the micro interactions that happen and sort of that's how nature and my ceiling operate is like from the tiny little interactions of like atoms and molecules and the mitochondria and the cell.
Like all those kinds of building blocks are composed and the resulting system is actually emergent from that complexity rather than designed by those individuals. So there's an underlying sort of root coordination that's happening and it's more about tuning into that signal of coordination than it is about us sort of enacting our own, the way we think it should be coordinated and sort of projecting that into nature.
That sort of idea of like root coordination is, I think that people in a lot of religions, that's essentially God, that's really what goes back to is like, recognizing that the world that we're in, it's a way more complex and strange and weird and powerful than one of us, like designed or could have even asked for.We didn't really ask to be here or like, at any part in this complex system that even created us. So to think that we are actually more intelligent than that is a very Immature way of thinking. So, I think that the next step for humanity to evolve is actually to go back and realize the real systems in which it needs to operate.
[00:43:19] Humpty Calderon: And that's wrap. I truly hope you've enjoyed this conversation. If you'd like to learn more about metaFactory, go to Metafactory.ai and on Twitter @MetaFactory. Thanks for listening to Crypto Sapiens. Please give us a follow like and a five star review wherever you enjoy your podcast. And stay tuned for our next discussion.